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Thread: Michigan........

  1. #141
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    This issue of RTW is a self inflicted wound by ORGANIZED LABOR.

    They were warned against putting a referendum on the MI ballot to make collective bargaining a constitutional right.
    It lost soundly by a 60% to 40% margin.
    Had they listened for a change, they would not be out of business now.

    The "CASH COW" for the secular progressive party has been slain!!

    Perhaps Finlander can speak directly to this.

    Congrats to the people of MI, you have won.
    Perhaps now you can get some businesses to flourish in your state.

    Good luck!
    Stan b & Elvis

  2. #142
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    This issue of RTW is a self inflicted wound by ORGANIZED LABOR.

    They were warned against putting a referendum on the MI ballot to make collective bargaining a constitutional right.
    It lost soundly by a 60% to 40% margin.
    Had they listened for a change, they would not be out of business now.

    The "CASH COW" for the secular progressive party has been slain!!

    Perhaps Finlander can speak directly to this.

    Congrats to the people of MI, you have won.
    Perhaps now you can get some businesses to flourish in your state.

    Good luck!
    Well see. I know several who I grew up with in Michigan who are UAW and always supported the GOP, they were very vocal against the union's support for Democrats. Today, they are hopping mad at the legislature and the gov. Same with several of the firefighters my dad worked with. They know that they are next.
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    This issue of RTW is a self inflicted wound by ORGANIZED LABOR.

    They were warned against putting a referendum on the MI ballot to make collective bargaining a constitutional right.
    It lost soundly by a 60% to 40% margin.
    Had they listened for a change, they would not be out of business now.

    The "CASH COW" for the secular progressive party has been slain!!

    Perhaps Finlander can speak directly to this.

    Congrats to the people of MI, you have won.
    Perhaps now you can get some businesses to flourish in your state.

    Good luck!
    Damn RK Tn. may now have to compete with not only your WI but Mich. too. Oh woh is us Tennesseans.

  4. #144
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Well see. I know several who I grew up with in Michigan who are UAW and always supported the GOP, they were very vocal against the union's support for Democrats. Today, they are hopping mad at the legislature and the gov. Same with several of the firefighters my dad worked with. They know that they are next.
    Just a quick reminder, this ain't when you grew up!!!!
    Last edited by road kill; 12-12-2012 at 02:10 PM.
    Stan b & Elvis

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Well see. I know several who I grew up with in Michigan who are UAW and always supported the GOP, they were very vocal against the union's support for Democrats. Today, they are hopping mad at the legislature and the gov. Same with several of the firefighters my dad worked with. They know that they are next.
    But it's OK if there is a new different tax rate, for the RICH . Please explain your reasoning behind this thought process .
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  6. #146
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    The police and firefighters should have unions. This is so the union can protect them from our politicians and the public which file lawsuits against them for doing their jobs. (Example: For police. Used a billy club instead of pepper spray, Used stun gun instead of billy club, Used a gun instead of a stun gun.) Even the POTUS when after the police. Then patched things by sitting down with him and the professor for a beer.

  7. #147
    Senior Member Susie Royer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Just a quick remender, this ain't when you grew up!!!!
    What year did you grow up in MI Buzz?

  8. #148
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    I really don't have any experience with unions, but trying to look at this objectively.

    It appears that once a company has a union, it always stays there. Does the union ever have to be subjected to a "confidence" vote? Like, every so many years, do the workers get to re-affirm that they want this union to represent them? For example, if a group of workers felt that the union was doing a poor job of representation; or if there was abuse of funds, etc., the workers might want a change ... either to another union or to no union.

    .........
    Gerry, you ask a lot of questions and brief answers are sometimes dangerous because they can leave misunderstandings. But I will answer and give my opinions as best I can.

    There is no “sunset law” for union representation. The process to decertify an existing union ... just like the process to organize one in the first place ... is a somewhat lengthy, legal one and, in both cases, is initiated by the members. It’s good that it is a somewhat lengthy process, in that it prevents a group of unorganized workers from hastily rushing out and organizing into a union and striking the company just because they are pizzed over some recent action. Likewise, it makes it difficult for union members to rush out and hastily decertify their union just because they are dissatisfied over some single recent, unpopular decision.

    (incidentally, members’ dissatisfaction with their union leadership almost always results from some lack of ability to resolve an issue or dispute with management that is dear to some of the members, i.e., dropping a grievance that, in the bigger picture, is without merit, etc.)

    Decertification is rare and in most cases is a company-inspired tactic to rid themselves of the union. For example, a company wants the union out; they provoke a strike by making unreasonable demands in negotiations and then immediately hire replacement workers from the street to cross the picket lines and work without a contract. (I have seen this happen where “scab” workers were imported from several states away ... people on parole who would not otherwise get hired, etc.) After these replacement workers have been on the job for one year without a contract, they are then recognized by the NLRB as the “permanent employees”. They petition for a decertification vote ... in which the striking workers on the street are now not allowed to vote ... and presto! No more union problems.

    Sound familiar? Air Traffic Controllers? Ronald Reagan made the statement publicly to the American Manufacturers Association, “watch me and I’ll show you how to bust a union”.

    Of course, we know that solved all the airlines’ problems.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

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  9. #149
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post

    .......

    For a long time (I don't know if it is still so), there were no unions in Japan, but workers were treated well. There were rarely layoffs or job-changing. We now have companies like Toyota here in the US who do not have a union for workers.

    .......

    Unions in Japan:

    I believe there are now unions in Japan, not sure how they operate, but the difference you are talking about is more one of management style. As you say, workers were treated well. And as I have said here before, if the workers are satisfied with their lot and are treated fair and equitably, there is no reason to form a union. Unions, just like most of our laws, originated from some sort of need.

    “Japanese Management Style” was the buzz word of the 80s when the “cooperative/participative management” movement was the rage. It is a bit of a misnomer ... there were a lot of Japanese management practices that were not necessarily “better” but they did focus on things like team-building, using the workers’ ingenuity, knowledge, and brains as well as his back, sharing information with the employees that was previously considered “sensitive”, listening and including shop floor folks in problem-solving processes, etc, etc.

    For 10 years, my job was as a “man in the middle”, in a joint labor/management effort at a fairly large company (Deere) helping implement that type of system. Resistance came from both directions, but believe me, it was much more difficult to break down the barriers from the management side. The workers were skeptical and didn’t trust the company but managers (who own the bat and the ball ) felt threatened that they would lose their, previously unchallenged power.

    This topic is a long, fascinating story but in brief, it has vastly improved labor relations in those companies that have gone in that direction.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ...​ at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  10. #150
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post

    .......


    What I haven't seen in these discussions is any admission that unions can have flaws in the way they are managed ... just like companies can have flawed management.
    Well, if I haven't said it before let me say it now: To suggest that all unions are flawless is ridiculous! I know that is not true, any more so than all managers and companies are evil.

    I guess I just took for granted we could all understand that. But rather than just swap personal anecdotes alone (which we can all dig up), I would rather discuss the general philosophy of workers organizing and use examples to support our beliefs.

    When talking of the fact that union wages are higher than non-union wages, that can also mean the products those companies produce will cost more than products made by non-union companies. Isn't that part of he problem with why jobs then go overseas ... because even though Americans might prefer to buy American-made products, they opt for foreign-made products due to price combined with quality. If the US-made product is superior, and the price is within reason v. the foreign-made product, it will still be competitive in the market.

    There is a market for higher quality goods. Toyota cars are competitive, even though often more expensive, due to their perceived durability. US-made cars lost their perceived quality over time. That's one example, and certainly not perfect, as more recently even Toyota has had quality-control issues it would appear.

    It is often cited that American workers are among the most productive workers in the world. I wouldn't dispute this. If we start there, then we might also assume they work hard to do a good job at what they do. Would it not follow that US products would then have a high quality? Is it the companies who manage the business who use methods that produce lower quality for their price point, and the workers simply do what they are told to do, even if it means producing an inferior product?

    I tend to think that smaller companies are more likely to use their workers' ingenuity in improving product quality or features. Large companies seem to have many layers between the worker and where the management decisions are made, and they lose the ability to tap into the workers' experience with the systems and materials. Can large unions similarly lose touch with their worker members?

    Locally, we have an Amazon distribution center. It made headlines in the local papers when workers were suffering through the summer in an incredibly hot building. There was public pressure for Amazon to improve its working conditions.

    I'd be interested in hearing the varied opinions on this.
    Union wages cause work to be moved overseas:

    Certainly, wages are going to be reflected in the price of a product we buy. But a couple things jump out;

    It does not follow that companies will lower their prices in conjunction with lower labor costs. As you mention, Toyotas are priced comparably to union-produced cars even though their wage scale is much lower.

    Long ago, when everyone smoked cigarettes, Malboro was the only popular brand not unionized. They always cost the same as the rest. What you did see was a tremendous amount of advertising ... with the money they saved in wages they tried to buy the market.

    When the production of shoes, once a major industry in the northeast, moved overseas, did the prices come down?

    Many examples, but even if it could be said that cheaper labor costs will always mean lower prices, do we really want to see how cheaply we can work??? Do we really want to participate in the “race to the bottom”??? Insisting to buy the cheapest we can find, regardless of other considerations, is just another form of greed, IMO. And to then accuse workers of greed for wanting a decent living wage, is simple hypocrisy.

    When I go south for the winter, I notice prices in grocery stores are definitely not lower than here at home even though the prevailing earnings in those states is significantly less.

    Regarding quality, I believe there are an awful lot of myths perpetuated about perceived better quality of products made overseas. Not sure how that can be proven and I do not trust some of the more popular “car-of-the-year” sources. I think there is a lot of marketing hype that conflicts with my personal experiences, but people general believe what they believe. All I can say is John Deere is the best!

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ...​ at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

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