The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 16 of 19 FirstFirst ... 61415161718 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 160 of 187

Thread: Michigan........

  1. #151
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New Berlin, WI
    Posts
    10,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    Unions in Japan:

    I believe there are now unions in Japan, not sure how they operate, but the difference you are talking about is more one of management style. As you say, workers were treated well. And as I have said here before, if the workers are satisfied with their lot and are treated fair and equitably, there is no reason to form a union. Unions, just like most of our laws, originated from some sort of need.

    “Japanese Management Style” was the buzz word of the 80s when the “cooperative/participative management” movement was the rage. It is a bit of a misnomer ... there were a lot of Japanese management practices that were not necessarily “better” but they did focus on things like team-building, using the workers’ ingenuity, knowledge, and brains as well as his back, sharing information with the employees that was previously considered “sensitive”, listening and including shop floor folks in problem-solving processes, etc, etc.

    For 10 years, my job was as a “man in the middle”, in a joint labor/management effort at a fairly large company (Deere) helping implement that type of system. Resistance came from both directions, but believe me, it was much more difficult to break down the barriers from the management side. The workers were skeptical and didn’t trust the company but managers (who own the bat and the ball ) felt threatened that they would lose their, previously unchallenged power.

    This topic is a long, fascinating story but in brief, it has vastly improved labor relations in those companies that have gone in that direction.

    JS
    So, in your honest opinion, does the modern day union care about its members?
    Or is it more concerned with large membership and cash flow??

    For the record....I have no issue really with trade unions.
    My issue was with public employee unions here in WI.
    When it was MANDATORY one belong.
    And mandatory you bought your insurance from 1 company (at twice the going rate).....owned by....wait for it.....wait for it






    DA UNION!!!!!


    Seems pretty legit!!

    I do not hate any union members and respect their right to waste their cash however they want.
    I am guessing not all union members want their money given to the secular progressive party, but too bad for them.


    Just sayin'........
    Stan b & Elvis

  2. #152
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    This issue of RTW is a self inflicted wound by ORGANIZED LABOR.

    They were warned against putting a referendum on the MI ballot to make collective bargaining a constitutional right.
    It lost soundly by a 60% to 40% margin.
    Had they listened for a change, they would not be out of business now.

    WOW! The union is out of business??

    You duped me once, rk, so I hesitate. I wish you had a "chain-jerking" smiley.

    I actually enjoy people with differing opinions but it drives me nuts when they have a misunderstanding. Last night Brian Williams, on the NBC News, referred to "the people of Michigan no longer having to belong to a union as a condition of employment", perpetuating the same misunderstanding about RTW that is often voiced here. In his next sentence, he posted a graphic showing 17% of the state's workers were union members.

    So what are you saying, Brian? That those other 83% of the workers in Michigan are breaking some sort of law?? Make yourself clear. Were the workers in Michigan required to belong to the union in order to work? Or only 17% of them?

    The "CASH COW" for the secular progressive party has been slain!!

    Perhaps Finlander can speak directly to this.

    Congrats to the people of MI, you have won.
    Perhaps now you can get some businesses to flourish in your state.

    Good luck!
    So what's really changed in Michigan? How many of those 83% do you think would have organized a union if I had come to Michigan to open a business????? Should I have had to worry about that???

    And how many of those 17% do you think will quit paying dues and drop out of the union now??? A few I suppose ... I'll stay tuned to Fox News. I'm sure they will be watching it closely.

    Businesses locate in the south, not because they have RTW laws but because the business sentiment there is generally anti-union and the people are used to working for less. Granted the RTW status is an indicator, but the law itself has no real impact on whether the union will attempt to organize or not.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American, though it may be too little too late now.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  3. #153
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    So, in your honest opinion, does the modern day union care about its members?

    YES, ABSOLUTELY!! The union IS the members. In the UAW ALL of our leadership ... 100% ... have come from the shop floor.

    Or is it more concerned with large membership and cash flow??

    No.

    For the record....I have no issue really with trade unions.
    My issue was with public employee unions here in WI.
    When it was MANDATORY one belong.
    And mandatory you bought your insurance from 1 company (at twice the going rate).....owned by....wait for it.....wait for it

    Are yu an insurance salesman??




    DA UNION!!!!!


    Seems pretty legit!!

    I do not hate any union members and respect their right to waste their cash however they want.
    I am guessing not all union members want their money given to the secular progressive party, but too bad for them.


    Just sayin'........
    See, I can write with colors, too!

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American, though it may be too little too late now.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  4. #154
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New Berlin, WI
    Posts
    10,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    WOW! The union is out of business??

    You duped me once, rk, so I hesitate. I wish you had a "chain-jerking" smiley.

    I actually enjoy people with differing opinions but it drives me nuts when they have a misunderstanding. Last night Brian Williams, on the NBC News, referred to "the people of Michigan no longer having to belong to a union as a condition of employment", perpetuating the same misunderstanding about RTW that is often voiced here. In his next sentence, he posted a graphic showing 17% of the state's workers were union members.

    So what are you saying, Brian? That those other 83% of the workers in Michigan are breaking some sort of law?? Make yourself clear. Were the workers in Michigan required to belong to the union in order to work? Or only 17% of them?



    So what's really changed in Michigan? How many of those 83% do you think would have organized a union if I had come to Michigan to open a business????? Should I have had to worry about that???

    And how many of those 17% do you think will quit paying dues and drop out of the union now??? A few I suppose ... I'll stay tuned to Fox News. I'm sure they will be watching it closely.

    Businesses locate in the south, not because they have RTW laws but because the business sentiment there is generally anti-union and the people are used to working for less. Granted the RTW status is an indicator, but the law itself has no real impact on whether the union will attempt to organize or not.

    JS
    By your account, it's all "much ado about nothing??"
    Stan b & Elvis

  5. #155
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    Union wages cause work to be moved overseas:

    Certainly, wages are going to be reflected in the price of a product we buy. But a couple things jump out;

    It does not follow that companies will lower their prices in conjunction with lower labor costs. As you mention, Toyotas are priced comparably to union-produced cars even though their wage scale is much lower.

    Long ago, when everyone smoked cigarettes, Malboro was the only popular brand not unionized. They always cost the same as the rest. What you did see was a tremendous amount of advertising ... with the money they saved in wages they tried to buy the market.

    When the production of shoes, once a major industry in the northeast, moved overseas, did the prices come down?

    Many examples, but even if it could be said that cheaper labor costs will always mean lower prices, do we really want to see how cheaply we can work??? Do we really want to participate in the “race to the bottom”??? Insisting to buy the cheapest we can find, regardless of other considerations, is just another form of greed, IMO. And to then accuse workers of greed for wanting a decent living wage, is simple hypocrisy.

    When I go south for the winter, I notice prices in grocery stores are definitely not lower than here at home even though the prevailing earnings in those states is significantly less.

    Regarding quality, I believe there are an awful lot of myths perpetuated about perceived better quality of products made overseas. Not sure how that can be proven and I do not trust some of the more popular “car-of-the-year” sources. I think there is a lot of marketing hype that conflicts with my personal experiences, but people general believe what they believe. All I can say is John Deere is the best!

    JS
    Simple economics and the laws of supply and demand are whats at play here. We live in a free market where capitalism prevails and we should all be thankful for that. Its the union's problem for not recognizing they have a demand problem. Lobbying and politics are short term fixes to this problem and seem to be the unions only recourse. The unions have been selling the same old glass of koolaid for almost a century and all it takes is one quick look at the numbers to see it is time to either engage the free market or cash out. The unions will never get the respect they want until they can design a product that makes sense for today's market, which inlcudes recognizing the laws of supply and demand. The quicker they realize that marketing annual benefit and pay increases to their customers regardless of market conditions is bad business, the sooner they will start to heal the deep wounds and gain the respect they so desire.

    I also see you spoke of Japan in the 80's in a previous reply. W. Edwards Deming revolutionized the Japanese auto industry with his management training that America was unwilling to accept. Maybe the union boys should pick up some of his material and figure out how to revolutionize?

  6. #156
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post
    Simple economics and the laws of supply and demand are whats at play here. We live in a free market where capitalism prevails and we should all be thankful for that. Its the union's problem for not recognizing they have a demand problem. Lobbying and politics are short term fixes to this problem and seem to be the unions only recourse. The unions have been selling the same old glass of koolaid for almost a century and all it takes is one quick look at the numbers to see it is time to either engage the free market or cash out. The unions will never get the respect they want until they can design a product that makes sense for today's market, which inlcudes recognizing the laws of supply and demand. The quicker they realize that marketing annual benefit and pay increases to their customers regardless of market conditions is bad business, the sooner they will start to heal the deep wounds and gain the respect they so desire.

    I also see you spoke of Japan in the 80's in a previous reply. W. Edwards Deming revolutionized the Japanese auto industry with his management training that America was unwilling to accept. Maybe the union boys should pick up some of his material and figure out how to revolutionize?
    Dude they having been doing that for 100 years as you say. When business is good the party they are negotiating with is more apt to agree to their request as opposed to when it is doiong poorly not be as giving. Bargining...no more

  7. #157
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    By your account, it's all "much ado about nothing??"
    Well, I wouldn't exactly say "nothing". But it's more of an insult than it is anything else. Pride and image.

    Nobody learned anything new yesterday about the sentiment toward unions. If a new business decides to locate in Michigan, they will face the same conditions they did last week as far as the threat of having to deal with DA UNION. If the majority of their employees don't want to pay union dues, they will vote no and there won't be a union. Just like last week.

    JS

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American, though it may be too little too late now.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  8. #158
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post

    .....

    I also see you spoke of Japan in the 80's in a previous reply. W. Edwards Deming revolutionized the Japanese auto industry with his management training that America was unwilling to accept. Maybe the union boys should pick up some of his material and figure out how to revolutionize?
    It was American BUSINESS/MANAGEMENT that would not accept Deming's ideas, NOT the union!!

    Contrary to the opinion of many, the unions do not make management decisions and have very little ability, OR DESIRE to stand in the way of progress.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American, though it may be too little too late now.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  9. #159
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by menmon View Post
    Dude they having been doing that for 100 years as you say. When business is good the party they are negotiating with is more apt to agree to their request as opposed to when it is doiong poorly not be as giving. Bargining...no more
    I think you nailed it. Who says the party they are negotiating with has to give anything? Thanks for helping me prove my point.

  10. #160
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post
    I think you nailed it. Who says the party they are negotiating with has to give anything? Thanks for helping me prove my point.
    They do if they want to keep their workers....that is my point. Obviously they need employees but employees need a fair wage. Left up to the companies that have unions they would not pay a fair wage. If they did with out the nudge of the union there would be no need for a union

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •