poison bird blinds

[paul young]

let's have a discussion of poison bird blinds.

Here's some questions to consider, but the discussion doesn't need to be confined to them; (silly me- this IS RTF. LMAO!!!)

-How do you train for them?
-Why use them?
-How frequently? in training, in tests/trials
-What are the judges looking for? in tests/trials
-How important a skill for a hunting dog?
-What constitutes a failure? in tests/trials

[BlaineT]

started training for them using a 4 phase drill
cause they're important to me especially hunting
i generally run a poison bird blind once a week with my young dog whether mixed in singles or as part of a multiple mark set up.
i'd guess they're looking for control but i dont have enough experience from the test/trial game to say.
very important. group shoots 3 birds. 2 fall dead. 1 is swimming away at a good clip headed for cover. "no" the dog off the dead bird and handle to the cripple.

[Howard N]

This is how I initially teach poison birds with youngsters:

I learned the 6 send drill from Woody Thurman when he came up here and did a retriever training seminar in 1992. I've done it with every retriever I've had that made it through the double T.

Basically, you set out 6 bumpers in a pile I do it anywhere between 100 and 150 yards. Get the dog and run a blind to the pile. Next run the pile again. The dog should line it or be better than the first time. Next put a gunner out there two thirds of the way to the blind. Just have the gunner sit there and run the blind again. Next, have the gunner stand up and fire a dry shot, run the blind. Next have the gunner fire a shot and throw a bumper/bird. Pick up the mark and run the blind. Last have the gunner throw a mark. Run the blind then pick up the mark.

The first few times you run it you're teaching it. After half a dozen times the dog usually has a good idea of this and I start doing only 2-3 a week for a couple/three weeks. At first run the mark 90 degrees off to the side but slowly work closer to the line to the blind. At the end your running mark very close to the line to the blind,don't forget to do some under the arc blinds. I do it maybe 12-15 times and then I don't come back to it. After a few of them you are only doing a 4 send drill and later on maybe only 3 sends.

Once a pup knows the 6 send drill I go to KRD's. I like to do ~60% of my KRD's as a mark then pick up the blinds and ~40% of them as poison bird blinds. I do 2 or 3 a week during the off season as I can do them without a big group. I throw in an interupted marking setup maybe once a week during the heavy training season.

The why's and how important it is I'll leave for someone else to say. It's a skill that is teachable.

[Pete]

1) initial concept starts with back to pile where its main function is break down and is incorporated in many of the drills all the way from yard work through transition, all being a step by step trasition
2) for control due to retriever games
3) depends on the dog///// only ran a hand full of opens this year and about half of the land blinds were poisen or BB diversion,, so common enough to need to train on here and there as needed
4) control I suppose
5) I seldom if ever use this skill in hunting. I find in the different environments I hunt saving the cripple last is way more advantageous for recovery and saves time.
6) failure occurs when dog picks up poison, or handler avoids a liberal line , or dog handling is sub par ,,,just like any other blind I guess

[moscowitz]

I do not train often on poison birds. I start poison birds using my pattern blinds. Think poison birds are unfair to dog but my opinion means nothing.

[mitty]

Paul, I was asking all the questions in the other thread because I want to know how to train my dog. Per TRT/Lardy I taught poison birds off of pattern blinds. But I did not find there much about how far off the line the poison birds get placed, and how far from the mat they get placed. I also found an article by Bill Totten that was helpful, much like what Howard described above. I've come across other how-to's here and there.

But my jaw dropped a few weeks ago at a setup I saw, far more difficult than anything I found on the web when I went looking. I would love it if people would provide some setup ideas.

Newbie regards...

[mitty]

This is how I initially teach poison birds with youngsters:



Once a pup knows the 6 send drill I go to KRD's. I like to do ~60% of my KRD's as a mark then pick up the blinds and ~40% of them as poison bird blinds. I do 2 or 3 a week during the off season as I can do them without a big group. I throw in an interupted marking setup maybe once a week during the heavy training season.

The why's and how important it is I'll leave for someone else to say. It's a skill that is teachable.

What's an "interrupted marking setup"?

[BonMallari]

we use diversion/poison birds a lot in training..it has many purposes IMO

1. it makes a blind more exciting because the possibility and combination of picking up the bird keep the dog guessing and on its toes

2. it tells the dog, you are on my agenda and I decide what you get to retrieve....unlike selection in a marking test

3. I am showing the dog two separate retrieves..a blind..and a mark

4. Every once in awhile I will not call the dog off the mark, but allow them to pick up the marks and then turn around and run the blind

[paul young]

If you get RFTN, look at the 8th series of the recent Canadian national. There is a diagrammed picture of a tough one. The write-up notes that most of the dogs had a number of whistles on both blinds. Sometimes the All-Age blinds at a weekend trial are even more severe.

[walt8@cox.net]

we use diversion/poison birds a lot in training..it has many purposes IMO

1. it makes a blind more exciting because the possibility and combination of picking up the bird keep the dog guessing and on its toes

2. it tells the dog, you are on my agenda and I decide what you get to retrieve....unlike selection in a marking test

3. I am showing the dog two separate retrieves..a blind..and a mark

4. Every once in awhile I will not call the dog off the mark, but allow them to pick up the marks and then turn around and run the blind

In bold is just the opposite of what we do. Once taught, my dog loves them, way too much. If we do too much work on them, PB's or Diversions, it makes it tough to do any fine tuning on the lines to memory birds. Too much fussing on the mat and my dog thinks we're doing a blind.
We do them, but not often, mostly to make sure they're still sharp on the concept. And usually in the form of a drill.
Walt