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Thread: poison bird blinds

  1. #21
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    The judges will tell you which one you will pick up first. Train for both.

    I think a double blind this tight, go by the short one first, is still legal in AKC field trials. What do other trialers, especially judges think?
    Last edited by Howard N; 12-13-2012 at 09:01 PM.
    Howard Niemi

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  2. #22
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    Still legal as far as I know.

    I think the difficulty here is that after picking up the short blind, the dog is being "squeezed" by it's previous line to the short blind and the poison bird. Some dogs may push off the the short blind and and end up being hacked at at the beginning while others may push off the poison bird and need to be handled towards the poison bird which is not desirable. Once past the PB the longer blind is not too difficult but being precise with that kind of brushy terrain and a fast moving dog takes skill by the handler and focus by the dog.

    Sorry the PB water blind got you Andy! From the picture, it looks like a dog could enter the water on line and still be on the bird before you saw it in time to do much about it.-Paul
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    How would one run this blind? What are the pitfalls? If you pick up the right hand blind first, dog is fighting the wind and if you try to cast to keep it on line it might think you are telling it to get the poison bird? Also if it drifts too far left it runs into the bird on the left, and once it gets past the PB and the left blind you have all the scent behind the dog calling it. If you run the blind on the left first, you still have dog fighting wind, and still possibly having to cast toward the poison bird to keep dog on line.

    Thoughts?
    Short blind first!IMO
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    How would one run this blind? What are the pitfalls? If you pick up the right hand blind first, dog is fighting the wind and if you try to cast to keep it on line it might think you are telling it to get the poison bird? Also if it drifts too far left it runs into the bird on the left, and once it gets past the PB and the left blind you have all the scent behind the dog calling it. If you run the blind on the left first, you still have dog fighting wind, and still possibly having to cast toward the poison bird to keep dog on line.

    Thoughts?
    This is a well designed PB blind. there's no way to avoid the hazards and still complete the blind in an acceptable manner. See my earlier post as to what i see as pitfalls on this setup. -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  5. #25
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    The judges will tell you which one you will pick up first. Train for both.

    I think a double blind this tight, go by the short one first, is still legal in AKC field trials. What do other trialers, especially judges think?
    That I did not know! Thanks.
    Renee P

  6. #26
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    That I did not know! Thanks.
    There are two situations in which judges can tell the handler what order they must pick up marks in. One is poison bird blinds, where they will often forgo picking up the mark in the interest of time. They would just have the poison bird thrown, you would run the blind, and then leave the line while the bird boy picks up the mark and prepares for the next dog.

    The other is in what are called "handling tests", which are multiple marks with a blind or two. There are many versions of them, but it involves the judges requiring a certain order of picking up both marks and blinds. It gets complicated describing all the variables. But here is an example.



    This set up is a classic Indented Triple with a blind tight behind the short middle gun, and past the longer fall on the right. There are several ways of using this, but one would be to throw them right to left - the long left mark being the Go bird. A judge might require you to wait until all birds are down, then run the blind, and then retrieve the marks. Or, they may let you pick up the Go bird first, then the blind, and then the other two marks. You can see how many ways you could do this. And that's just one configuration!

    Personally, I think they make better training than tests. But that's just me.

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    In other posts, I have mentioned that: If you want to make an educated guess about what the judges want in a blind (when they don't give instructions or draw a diagram), then you start by guessing as to what items they will have in their judging book. F = Features in judges' diagram

    These are the features that I would expect a judge to have in his/her judging book:

    DIAGRAM 1




    This is how I would view the blind as a judge - and lacking any other information - as a competitor.
    H = Hazards to be negotiated.

    DIAGRAM 2



    The Retriever Advisory Committee has taken the position - one with which I disagree, but will honor - that to run the long blind prior to the short blind is an attempt to circumvent the rule on diversionary birds and that to do so is therefore illegal. That rule reads as follows:


    Diversion Bird: A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind. Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind.

    The RAC interpretation is that the short blind is contrary to the provision which is highlighted above. So, in the US, at least, you would need to run the short blind before the long blind.

    In my view, the short blind mostly serves to set up the long blind. I would probably stay left of the line to give myself more room to work on the long blind.

    On the long blind, I believe you should keep your dog right of the short blind throughout your blind. I would score you down for being left of the short blind.

    On the long blind, you are addressing the following factors:
    - The tendency of the dogs to fade with wind (go left)
    - The tendency of the dogs to push off short blind (go right)
    - The tendency of the dogs to run to the poison bird (go right)
    - The tendency of the dogs to duck behind obstacles where visibility is poor (stand of trees towards end of blind)

    To some extent the short blind helps a handler with an experienced war horse get the line to the long blind. An experienced dog will know:

    1. Don't get the poison bird (even as you wind it on your way by)
    2. Don't go left of the short blind

    Follow 1 and 2, and voila, experienced dog has picture of appropriate corridor.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    The judges will tell you which one you will pick up first. Train for both.

    I think a double blind this tight, go by the short one first, is still legal in AKC field trials. What do other trialers, especially judges think?
    No it is NOT legal!

    Paragraph 20 of the FT standard states in part:
    No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind.

    Additionally, at the meeting of the 2009 National Am. The Chairman of the RAC specifically stated that running a double blind where you run the long blind 1st (with the short blind already planted) was prohibited by this provision in their view.

  9. #29
    Junior Member russhardy's Avatar
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    This tight double blind with poison bird got me thinking about marks and the use of primary or secondary selection. I'm very new at this sport and fell into it with my first dog. I have been reading on this forum for a while and particularly enjoy following these types of discussions. We are just to cold blinds so are not yet training for anything this sophisticated. We train with secondary selection on marks.

    The interpretation of the rules in previous posts states that in a FT secondary blind selection is required when running the double blinds in that you have to pick up the short one first, at least if they are tight like the one that Howard provided a picture and diagram of. At the same time you are telling your dog to ignore a mark (the poison bird and the last and only bird down) and go where you tell him which is similar to primary selection (go where I tell/show you and not necessarily at the last bird that fell). I've got some questions for those of you with much more experience than I do.

    A) Does anyone train on double blinds with poison bird like this with the idea that there is carryover and that it somehow supplements their practice of either primary or secondary selection?

    B) If you consistently trained your dog for primary selection on marks would it make it easier/more successful to run blinds with a poison bird?

    C) To the secondary selectors: Do you feel that training for and running a blind with a poison bird undoes any of your mark training where you always pick up the last bird down first?

    D) Or is there no real correlation from the dog's perspective between primary/secondary selection training and poison bird blind training?

    Regards - Russ

  10. #30
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    I enjoy working on the blinds. The poison bird is something else.

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