RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Thoughts on Waterdog by Robert Wolters

25K views 70 replies 49 participants last post by  Keith Stroyan 
#1 ·
New to form here,

site caught my eye and felt like joining because of good informative people, that could help me along my journey of training my first retriever.

I just picked up a yellow pup, female, 2 weeks ago.
She's now 11 weeks old and i've started working with her and she's doing great already.
Faigh(dawg) picked up on the whistle commands very quickly and shows good signs of drive.

Now I understand that Wolters moves at an "accelerated" pace, and it's what both my uncle and grandfather use.
Just curious what the community's thoughts were on this training path or if the Hillman, mentioned often in threads, is the way to go.


Thanks,
Chris
 
#37 ·
Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. I have had very good results using Mike Stewart's "Training the Wildrose Way" and advice from Robert Milner.


Merry Christmas Everybody...I'm out!
 
#39 ·
Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. I have had very good results using Mike Stewart's "Training the Wildrose Way" and advice from Robert Milner.


Merry Christmas Everybody...I'm out!
I won't argue with you on training, I'm sure you did do well with your dog and the Stewart book, but I have to take issue with your comment about today's labs lacking natural ability compared to dogs of the past. I don't think high power and natural ability conflict. I think most field trail dogs today, Lab, Chessie or Golden, have an abundance of natural marking ability, some are very high powered, some are more medium speed.

John
 
#38 ·
My thoughts on this topic: Prior to Walters Water Dog..the traditional approach to formal dog training was wait until the dog is 6 months old. Walters said 49 days...now to me that is way too exact science or expectation...49 days 60 days or 70 days..got to be some variance but I think the main thing he contributed that has changed retriever dog training was the idea that you can and need to start the training earlier and that was 40 + years ago. Mertens and Hillman,Lardy and Graham have have have given us some more specialized curriculum and time lines for retriever school in the digital age and today young pups and trainers have this enhanced benefit.
 
#48 ·
MG, Thank you. One day you and I need to cross paths live. I believe we'd have some cool conversation.

I had one more Wolters memory that I'd like to write about. It just popped into my mind and I've got the time to type.

My lab when I was in my early 20's was named "Champ". The RTF banner in the top left shows his good side. A professional photographer took many shots of us to get one that looked that good!

In Mr. Wolters later years, he did some part time work at the Manhattan Orvis shop, and Randy Carlson (now an exec at Lion Country Supply) was the store manager back then. I had befriended Randy through NAHRA and I got an invite to participate in the retriever demos done by MR. Wolters at an Okemo Mountain Resort event. It was held in conjunction with the World Sporting Clays championship.

Mr. Wolters was quite the showman, wearing his sportcoat and knickers with a bowtie. He talked up quite the public yarn as we demonstrated some retriever basics. He also spent lots of time autographing copies of his book - those folks brought from home to have him sign - and those that folks bought there at the show.

"Show Spot the pictures, you read the words, then both believe" ...was a common autograph he'd inscribe in the books.

We had a simple water retrieve around an oval pond. Randy Carlson and Reva would run the marks beautifully. Vito and Carrie (Angelone) but before Carrie married Vito, were there with a litter of puppies and of course all of Vito's dogs ran great. It was at that very event that Vito told me of the Kappes-Curtis and/or Carr-curtis tapes that were circulating around and how one could use this "new program" to get dogs to handle great. I finally learned what he was referencing when I chose to open my mind a bit and truly study Lardy's materials.

Champ, my big, clunky yellow lab was of common backyard breeding. He had one FC a few brackets back. FC Deltone Buck, I believe was the distant field champion on his pedigree. Poor Champ was hacked and mishandled by myself through lots of trial and error. I will never, ever forget coming to the line with great big "Champ" to run a water mark. Just as I was signalling for the mark, Mr. Wolters said into the microphone "By land or by sea?!!!"

Champ ran the bank, he got the mark, he never got a foot wet. I remember vowing that day to learn to train better and to get a better-bred dog later in my life.

Somewhere in this thread I read someone writing something about today's labs being of less natural ability than labs years ago. I would agree that there are many more pet labs out of questionable stock with questionable natural ability. This is just due to the sheer popularity of the breed. I would not agree that today's FC/AFC breedings in North America are producing animals of lesser "natural ability".

What's wonderful about today's retriever games around the world is that we have some very diverse games and desired qualities. The Brit games require very level-headed, even-keeled, calm, and rock-steady dogs that perform well under the excitement of many gunshots and chaotic settings. The USA trials require dogs with much more drive, liniing ability and pinpoint marking capabillity among tricky setups with multiple factors.

Simple logic would follow that if you take the top performers in either type game, and breed them to other top performers, after several generations, you're probably likely to produce puppies who are more likely to possess those qualities. That's selective breeding.

Those of us who think blondes are the most beautiful would probably not be likely to pick a brunette if we were judging a beauty pageant. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I like to think of my drives through Amish country when I think of retriever breedings. I frequently see two distinctly different types of horses in the Amish lots. There are gigantic horses, I'm not sure what they are technically called, but I call them "Draft Horses". There are also other style horses. They are smaller, leaner, faster looking horses. They both serve 2 different purposes - one pulls heavy stuff and gets major pulling done. The other is nimble and quick and is the horsepower behind the Amish buggies. The Amish don't argue about which is a better horse. Neither is truly better. One is better at some, and the other is better at a different set of performance skills.

Same with labradors - Brit versus North American Field.

Years ago when I ran NAHRA exclusively, I was a victim of breathing too much NAHRA air. When you breathe your own air too much, you get a closed mind. I used to think it was best and desireable that dogs running NAHRA be out of MHR x MHR breedings and that FC or MH was a bad thing. That's stupid logic!

I used to find it hypocritical that Jack Jagoda, back when he was with Diana at Southland, listed all these Field Trial titles in his breedings and litters. It used to bum me out that he did not more deliberately advertise NAHRA titled dogs as the breeding stock and not showcase the field titles. Decades later, I think I get it.

If you're happy with your dog, that's what matters. If you're happy with your training and results, that's what matters. It is totally possible that your tastes and needs will evolve over time. They may even come full-circle.

Chris
 
#49 ·
Here is a photo of me about 25+ years ago getting a ribbon from Richard Wolters. The ribbon was to my Tar and it was the first "gold" band awarded in NAHRA.

Chris those were good posts about RW and his contributions. Back in 1985-86 he was a big deal in my neck of the woods. Like many people I have outgrown his work. I don't know why the photo didn't scan in color because they did actually have color back in those days.

 
#50 · (Edited)
Wayne,

Thanks so much for posting that delicious snap of RW!

I don't have much to add to the discussion save that I too find his written works rather charming period pieces. You could still put together a decent retriever with his stuff, but time has moved on and better things are available. I put RW in the same bracket as his (approximate) UK equivalent Peter Moxon. I met PM several times and a nicer bloke never pulled on boots; he was a very fine writer, a great judge of a bottle of Burgundy, and an even greater judge of a well turned female ankle.;) Dog trainer? ... oh well.

I think my New Year resolution will be the furtherance and promotion of a more formal approach amongst you guys in the dress dept. Breeks, tweeds, sock flashes, the lot.

One for the lads ....
and another for the lassies


Eug
 
#51 ·
think my New Year resolution will be the furtherance and promotion of a more formal approach amongst you guys in the dress dept. Breeks, tweeds, sock flashes, the lot.
Eug, to paraphrase Mae West as channeled by your countess of country sport above, "Is that one of those ridiculously long American field trial guns in your pocket -



or are you just glad to see me?"

MG
 
#56 ·
Keith posted
Could you explain the difference between knickers and breeks? (With photos??) :)
You are a very wicked man ;-). But, nothing loathe and always up for a challenge I offer the following pic of a charming young lady wearing tweed breeks and shooting jacket. Unless she's a vey generous and particularly friendly sort, her knickers will remain a matter of speculation!



Eug
 
#57 ·
Keith posted

You are a very wicked man ;-). But, nothing loathe and always up for a challenge I offer the following pic of a charming young lady wearing tweed breeks and shooting jacket. Unless she's a vey generous and particularly friendly sort, her knickers will remain a matter of speculation!



Eug
Very funny, Colonel Blimp, 1800's usage of the term "knickers". The girl is cute.
 
#58 ·
Col. B., When I was in grammer school (Grades 1 thru 8) , in the Fall and Winter, I often wore trousers that ended at my knee with elastic. They were referred to as knickers, and were usually cordaroy material. When I walked rapidly they made a sound and I was often called "whistle britches". We also have the term knickers for under pants, but it is often referred to as " getting into them". Just a different terminology depending on which side of the pond you are on. Mr. Wolters' were the type that ended at his knee and he wore them on the outside! Lord only knows what he had on underneath! He enjoyed being "different".

When judging HRC test I could tell which handlers were Wolters trainees, they sent their dogs on a double tweet, tweet, and would often use the same sound to change direction. I have had great pleasure over the years with the people and their dogs that I have met and it has been with great regret that I can no longer physcally have the ability to run my dog and to judge others running theirs. I truly miss the association with those that have so much inteligence, both human and particularly dogs. It is a great bunch we have over here, i hope you have the same on your side. God Save The Queen, Bill
 
#59 ·
I have a couple of Wolters books. I trained a few dogs based on them and they were very good hunting dogs. In hindsight there were better books and training methods even then and I would not recommend Wolters to anyone today.
I train with someone that knew Wolters. He described him as "really weird" and unable to train a dog to do anything.
 
#62 ·
Sorry !! I can't pass on this old post. I was very active in the FT game in the 70's and early 80's. I was fortunate to to have a pretty fair dog, QAA2 by today's nomenclature. The only book I ever read on dog training at the time was Water Dog. My training reflected that. Other than the whistle releases everything in the book is still of value. I know nothing about Wolters' personality and /or faults. The book was clearly the best of it's time. It revolutionized many aspects of retriever training. In my opinion Richard Wolters wrote the Bible on retriever training. There is a copy on an end table not 10 feet from me as i write this. I still reference it.
 
#65 ·
1985 I am 15 years old and my Dad agrees to let me acquire my first "bird dog". Me and Dad had a contract and everything about responsibilities and all that. I think she cost 200 bucks which for me was all the paper route money I could scramble. I went in whole hog with the training and also 0 money I had left after the puppy purchase. Wolters Water Dog book was at the library and I followed it pretty dang close.. I ended up with a teenager trained dog that had some OB, ran like crazy on a pheasant trail ( you better be able to run to be in range when the bird flushed) , But the girls at the beach loved that little yellow lab when I said sit and she sat - they sat with me:) Thank you Mr. Wolters for your book . Brought back some memories with this old post...
 
#67 ·
20 years ago when I knew everything, I used to trash Richard Wolters.

How do many of the self acknowledged retriever expert keyboard cowboys differ in this day and age from RW? As Chris Atkinson noted, RW made a lasting impact on this sport with his advocacy of Hunt tests and writing a simple book by which many people could have a (relatively) well trained pooch. Quite a legacy, don't you think?
 
#68 ·
Another very sensitive subject I guess.
I started training retrievers about 1980. When Wolters first wrote Gun Dog and then Water Dog in the early 60's they were in fact revolutionary. His books nudged the dog training world in a direction it needed to go. His books are still worth reading, well written and give a great perspective on how far training methods have advanced. As training guides they are a terrible choice considering all the other options available.
 
#69 ·
I trained my first dog into a fine all around hunting dog who could handle with Water Dog. I had never see a hunt test or field trial, it was 1980, I had absolutely no reference other than that book. Looking back it’s actually a kind of miracle, a lot was due to the fact that I had the exact perfect dog for a rank beginner, she was very eager to please me, yet had incredible drive to retrieve and was a monster water dog.

We are clearly way past Wolters now, but to me it’s irrelevant at this date whether or not that he could actually train a dog, the point is he got a lot of us started in creating a functional hunting retriever.
 
#70 ·
We are clearly way past Wolters now, but to me it’s irrelevant at this date whether or not that he could actually train a dog, the point is he got a lot of us started in creating a functional hunting retriever.
There it is.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top