RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Pointing Dogs? Anybody train them....

10K views 38 replies 26 participants last post by  Happy Gilmore 
#1 ·
I recently had the opportunity to go upland hunting for the first time, and really enjoyed watching the dogs work. I was curious if anyone on here has ever trained or been around pointers much. How does the training compare to retreiver training in regards to difficulty? I work with one of the guys affiliated with the hunting preserve we hunted on and he has a 6 month old Llewellin Setter he is selling, and I'm considering getting the dog and training it myself, but I have never even been around pointers until this year. If I was to go ahead and get the dog, what training videos or books do you recommend? Any information, advice, or comments are welcome. Thanks.

KRD
 
#2 ·
As an old time RTFer would say " it depends". There is a great deal of difference in range in the pointing breeds, even among themselves. Make sure first. Setters can take things personally almost like a Golden.They typically don't have the natural retrieving as a Continental breed would.Delmar Smith's DVDs etc are good.
 
#3 ·
I have been around pointers and setters all my life. Totally different training methods from retrievers due to a totally different game, but there is a similar approach as well as numerous different methods (sound familiar?) There is a lot of focus on style and running. Not as much on control. It's a lot of fun training and hunting them.

I don't know about the current literature out there. I grew up with it, so the ones I trained, I trained as I was taught.

There is a big difference in the breeds just like the retriever breeds. My dad used to say, "Pointers have quail for a brain, setters can actually think." The way I look at it is to win the National, pointers are probably the way to go. For the every day hunter that wants a pet as well, a setter may be a better option.

Good luck
 
#5 ·
What? Stay away from English Pointers? Big running scatter brains? How can you say that about my little girl Gracie...



I'd spend time writing a long rebuttal to your evaluation after having Gracie for 11 years and running NSTRA with her but I have to jump on the quad and go chase her down....



/Paul
 
#8 · (Edited)
Here we go.Roll up the sleeves and get the popcorn out. I started off with pointing dogs.Specifically GSP. I was in NAVHDA at first and then went to AKC FT.I had what they call in American Field a Wide Shooting dog and in addition to him another one a true All Age dog who's break away was a 1/2 mile.Get on the Walkin Hoss and ride up while the dog was on point and kick the bird out,fire the blank and then release the dog to go on the back course.I had a Pointer lemon bitch given to me that was a grand daughter of Millers White Cloud on top and Riggins White Knight on the bottom.She was a sweety.A lot depends on what you are hunting too.Wide open spaces you want a big running dog. Pheasant and you want a closer dog. Go to the breed you like, look at the back ground and see the parents. I have seen a few(very few) decent Vizlas. I would stick with what you like and get the breeding that is appropriate for your style of hunting.
 
#11 ·
Well.....I've owned Pointer, Setters and worked Brittanies and GSP/Wirehaired Pointers.

Wirehaired Pointers are ugly. But for a amateur wanting a good hunting dog, they are a good prospect.

Beware of GSP. MOST are bred for FTs and if you want to foot hunt behind your dog forget about it. They are BIG running dogs that you will most like need a 4-wheeler to hunt behind.

Setters are sweet, most are bred for the foot hunter. But make sure you watch pedigrees. If you are gonna hunt on foot, you want a pedigree that reflects that.

I love the Pointers. They are exuberant, excitable beautiful dogs. Lack of coat sucks in cold climates. Like with the Setters, check the pedigree for foot hunting dogs.

I currently have 3 pointers and just had a setter pass away.

I will go the path of the Setter next time. I live in a colder climate and the coat is a necessary evil.

WRL
 
#12 ·
I ran retriever trials in the late 80' and early 90's. After that I always had a lab or two as hunting dogs. A few years ago my son wanted a pointing dog and I started to do some research and decided on a Pudelpointer. This is not a designer breed, they are hard core working dogs that were developed in Germany in the late 1800's. Out of all the pointing breeds, they tend to be the most natural retrievers, which is important to me. I now have two, a 4 year old male and a 6 mo old female. The male is the best dog that I have ever owned, hands down and the female shows great promise. My male likes to retrieve more than any lab I have ever owned, and I had one or two good labs over the years with all age FT points. If you are interested in more info please PM me and I will help you in anyway that I can. There is a group of breeders called the Pudelpointer Alliance, they have done a great job with this breed. They only breed those dogs that are worthy with strict working criteria, and will only sell puppies to hard core hunters. They have also kept the breed from AKC registration to keep it pure and out of the hands of the masses. They are registered with NAVHDA, American Field and the UKC.
 
#15 ·
Breed and breeding selection would really depend on your area and the type of terrain you hunt. Any recommendations up to that info from you are premature.
I owned Llewelyns in NW Oklahoma and they worked great for my type of hunting. Smaller areas, creek bottoms, fence rows, and wind breaks on 160 or less were my most common areas. When I hunted big land I went with friends who had English pointers. My dogs were a great compliment to the group in those situations.
Anyway, let us know the type of hunting you willbe doing.
 
#16 ·
Yep trained them for 20 yrs. Setter and pointers both. One of the finiest gun dogs I ever walked behind was a 2 time Nat Ch horseback FT big running fool that was smart enough to know it was time to hunt and you were not on a horse,turned into a meat dog for the day. Had some mighy good FT setters that would hunt all day with you too. As for those "other" pointing dogs...real pointing dogs have long tails


 
#19 ·
A training buddy of mine has a L. Setter in for training right now, she's all of 3 mts old, she's in for canine socialization and birds for a few weeks. She is really into birds, and already pointing, they're puppy working on waoh, and since her training partner a 4 mt. old field lab, she picking up them up as well. Very smart little pup, a bit of a trouble maker as only a smart little girl can be. I bet they're going to be glad they got to work with her early ;).
 
#21 ·
A litter from the Daughter of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise should be on the ground anytime- due today.
 
#25 ·
Pointing dogs


I've had llewellin setters in the past. They're great dogs and once u get them steady and retrieving you're set. I've switched to a labrador retriever for upland hunting because I like a dog that flushes the birds hard. So many pheasants are runners now and leave your pointer pointing at a ghost. But pointers are beautiful on the point. Now I'm thinking I might go out and get a pointer again!
 
#26 ·
The original post also asked about the difference in training. I train GSPs for foot hunting trials and retrieving trials for retrievers where we also compete. The main difference seems to be that with hunting a pointing dog you are relaying on the natural inbuilt traits of the dog being brought out by experience and some training/control. A lot of learning by doing - fun for both dog and hunter! Training retirevers seems to me to involve a lot more discipline, drills, etc that you read about here and are essential for training a retriever of any breed.
 
#27 ·
If you are in West Kentucky out at Kevil KY is West KY wildlife Management area. There are some folks training or running out there a lot of the time. Be a great place to train a good Setter. My first love has always been big running ,tail cracking Pointers but one of the best meat dogs I ever hunted with was a Lewellen. I judged out there last year and when airing my Labs got into a nice covey of birds, Go for it .......get the pup and enjoy it. :)
 
#28 · (Edited)
Who said Wirehaired dogs are ugly??




And Pointers don't retrieve ducks



I have been involved in the different versatile breeds for 20+ yrs a good dog is a good dog and there are poop heads in every breed. A good pointing dog with some experience will hunt the plains out West at 400 yards and come back and hunt grouse and woodcock in the cover anywhere from 50-150 yards. Typically they will not take the obedience that you can put on a Lab without showing negative effects in style range, etc. They need to be independent enough to hunt too find birds without any direction from you as a handler and you can spot a pointing bred dog who has had heavy obedience from a mile away. The young Pudelpointer in the top photo will be running HRC stuff this coming spring/summer/fall.
 
#30 ·
I purchased a Llewellyn puppy primarily for hunting chukar but wound up hunting pheasant and California quail with her as well. I also helped train two other Llewellyns. They are fairly easy to train as they have a lot of natural talent but generally are not good retrievers and need to be force fetched. If you have not trained a pointer before, it would be wise to find a local trainer and do some volunteer work for that trainer and learn as you go. The dogs I trained were excellent in big country but also worked marshes well for roosters. I never had the dog break a point ; she was steady to the flush but trained to break on the shot; ie., I used her solely for hunting. My only complaint about the breed was the coat; it loved burs. I used a Delmar Smith video and one from Meisner of Pointing Dog...but they are pretty old now. I also used a local pro and that provided the best learning environment for me and the dog.
 
#34 ·
I train about 50/50, pointing breeds to retrievers, and work closely with the Delmar Smith method. I also write for Pointing Dog Journal with Delmar's son, Rick.
There are good dogs and bad dogs in most all breeds. A Llewelyn setter would be a fine choice, as would a well-bred dog of any of the pointing breeds. I currently own a Brittany, and have two GSPs in my training string....have had some of all the pointing breeds pass through here. If you buy a well-bred pup, what you put into it is what you'll get out of it. My next pointing dog will be an English pointer, preferable with a little Elhew in the mix.

To speak to your original question: With the pointing breeds, there is a lot less control during the first year as opposed to retrievers, and a lot more fun afield to encourage prey drive and birdiness. Birds, birds and more birds. If you compare the retrievers vs. the pointers as far as AKC hunt tests, a MH for pointing dogs is light years easier to train for and achieve than a MH for retrievers.

And cross-training is possible. ;)

Dog Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed German longhaired pointer
 
#36 · (Edited)
The pointing dog trainers I have met tend to back off on obedience because they want to develop the hunt in the dog. I don't know if all trainers are like that. I have had a hand in training Brits, GSPs, and a Braque Francais. The Braque has a terrific nose. We recently hunted him on state land and we got 7 points on birds, all pointed in heavy brush.

I think that force fetching was a little more tedious than what I do for retrievers.

The Brit that I am currently helping a friend with is the most natural retriever of the ones I have dealt with and is very good in the water.

I have to add that I had the opportunity to watch two Muensterlanders work. I really liked what I saw.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top