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Thread: Carr based training system?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Aussie's Avatar
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    Default Carr based training system?

    Could someone explain what is the Carr based training system?
    Field trial labradors, the wind beneath my wings,

    sometimes poop under my boots.

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    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    You can start here.

    Others with first hand knowledge may chime in later.

    http://www.vickielamb.com/RexCarr/
    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

    Avatar courtesy of RTF"s TZAPPIA

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    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie View Post
    Could someone explain what is the Carr based training system?
    If you compare the steps and lessons in a Basics program of Lardy, Farmer, Aycock, Stawski, Graham, Attar, Kappes, Curtis, Rorem, Carey and others including Basics as I describe in Retrievers ONLINE, you will see a set of steps and a sequence that is fundamentally the same. That sequence was first developed by Rex by the early-mid 70's. Thus, it is reasonable to label such programs as Carr-based. It has been described as a "force-based system" but that term is loaded with baggage. There are many variants but list the steps and you will see the genesis.

    When you get to Transition, a term formally introduced by Attar and Lardy and copied by others, you start to see some more variances amongst the steps as practiced above and by Rex. But again the fundamentals are there in Rex's work.

    Of course, each of the above have added their own wrinkles to approach and implementation and perhaps there are the most significant differences in philosophy. However, the "basic" steps are from a Carr based training system whether they learned it from Rex or not. For example, Lardy did not visit with Rex until the 90's but he saw a certain sequence with Kappes in the early 80's.

    All of the above use Operant Conditioning theory but there are considerable differences in how they emphasize + and - P and R for those that care about such things.

    I can name a bunch of other pros who use a similar sytem but since they haven't publically documented their training elsewhere, I won't list them. Suffice it to say that almost all of the Field trial professionals use a similar basic sequence but implement in diverse ways.

    If you study Rex and his philosophy you will see continual evolution. You will also see that he continually challenged new methods. He would turn over in his grave at the idea that revolutionary new "successful field methods" have been invented in the last 10 years. He would scoff at the idea that a dog could be trained to National levels with clickers/R+ve only. Having said that, he would applaud the refinement of methods to deal with a diversity of dogs and handlers and the challenges of today's field trials.

    In his later years, Rex became very adamant about being fair and compassionate towards the dogs and how we train them. That was despite his early emphasis on a "force or compulsion based" approach. His passion and concern for the dogs was extreme.He would easily come to tears talking about some of his great dogs!!!

    Unfortunately, in the hands of some, his methods were implemented with far less compassion and concern for the dogs!!

    Rex was loved, hated, respected and above all misunderstood at times. He didn't have time for the casual or the unpassionates. His ego about the importance of doing what was best for the dog turned many off.

    Clearly, history has already shown the impact of a Carr-based system! I doubt we'll see the likes of it again!

    PS. I applaud Vicki's synopsis of Rex as linked above!!!
    Last edited by RetrieversONLINE; 12-14-2012 at 10:13 PM.
    Dennis

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    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    Dennis,
    Technically speaking, the training of the root behaviors of Carr-based training is not operant conditioning. Skinner-based operant conditioning deals with the reinforcement of behaviors thru the application of a stimulus (reward or punishment) immediately following the occurrence of that behavior. Thus when a sit occurs and is immediately followed by a reward, then that sit will tend to occur more frequently. When a sit is followed by a punishment, then that sit will tend to occur less frequently.
    The root behaviors of Carr-based training are force fetch, force to pile, force to sit, force to come. These are all trained as escape responses. The stimulus (shock) comes before the behavior. The stimulus is applied and the following behavior is guided into the applicable escape response. In force fetch by successive approximation you pinch the ear and guide the behavior into grabbing the dummy. In force to sit, you apply the shock and guide the following behavior into a sit. Operant conditioning doesn’t deal with behaviors that follow the application of the stimulus, be that stimulus positive or be it negative.
    Operant condition;
    Behavior------------apply stimulus ---------------increase or decrease in that behavior

    Escape response
    Apply Stimulus --------- behavior (escape response)----------increase whatever that escape response is
    Robert Milner
    www.DuckhillKennels.com


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    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilner View Post
    Operant condition;
    Behavior------------apply stimulus ---------------increase or decrease in that behavior
    That would mean a bark collar is operant conditioning, correct?
    Sharon Potter

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    That would mean a bark collar is operant conditioning, correct?
    GOOD GIRL!

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

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    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    GOOD GIRL!

    Evan
    Do I get a cookie?
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Maybe a "click"?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

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    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Maybe a "click"?

    Evan
    Guess I'll settle for the click...fewer calories.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  10. #10
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilner View Post
    Dennis,
    Technically speaking, the training of the root behaviors of Carr-based training is not operant conditioning. Skinner-based operant conditioning deals with the reinforcement of behaviors thru the application of a stimulus (reward or punishment) immediately following the occurrence of that behavior. Thus when a sit occurs and is immediately followed by a reward, then that sit will tend to occur more frequently. When a sit is followed by a punishment, then that sit will tend to occur less frequently.
    The root behaviors of Carr-based training are force fetch, force to pile, force to sit, force to come. These are all trained as escape responses. The stimulus (shock) comes before the behavior. The stimulus is applied and the following behavior is guided into the applicable escape response. In force fetch by successive approximation you pinch the ear and guide the behavior into grabbing the dummy. In force to sit, you apply the shock and guide the following behavior into a sit. Operant conditioning doesn’t deal with behaviors that follow the application of the stimulus, be that stimulus positive or be it negative.
    Operant condition;
    Behavior------------apply stimulus ---------------increase or decrease in that behavior

    Escape response
    Apply Stimulus --------- behavior (escape response)----------increase whatever that escape response is
    Robert,


    Disagree!

    Escape and avoidance responses are an integral part of Operant Conditioning theory. In "Carr-based" retriever training a behaviour always precedes the stimulus. That is the behaviour targetted. A command also precedes the stimulus which starts a behaviour. That is the behaviour that is increased or decreased (reinforced or punished). In negative reinforcement, the dog escapes or avoids the stimulus and the behaviour preceding the stimulus increases.

    For example, commands such as sit or back are followed by the onset of the behaviour and then the stimulus occurs and is escaped or avoided by completing the behaviour. This increases the liklihood of the sit or back occurring next time and the behaviour is reinforced.

    You don't just turn on the e-collar and then get the dog to sit. The dog is already conditioned to a command.

    Furthermore, if you would have trained with Carr or many of his disciples you would also see that they use all 4 of +ve and -ve R and P. which was my original statement. Incidentally, I have never seen a trainer use praise as strongly as Rex did.
    Dennis

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