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Carr based training system?

14K views 40 replies 15 participants last post by  elmer fencl 
#1 ·
Could someone explain what is the Carr based training system?
 
#3 · (Edited)
If you compare the steps and lessons in a Basics program of Lardy, Farmer, Aycock, Stawski, Graham, Attar, Kappes, Curtis, Rorem, Carey and others including Basics as I describe in Retrievers ONLINE, you will see a set of steps and a sequence that is fundamentally the same. That sequence was first developed by Rex by the early-mid 70's. Thus, it is reasonable to label such programs as Carr-based. It has been described as a "force-based system" but that term is loaded with baggage. There are many variants but list the steps and you will see the genesis.

When you get to Transition, a term formally introduced by Attar and Lardy and copied by others, you start to see some more variances amongst the steps as practiced above and by Rex. But again the fundamentals are there in Rex's work.

Of course, each of the above have added their own wrinkles to approach and implementation and perhaps there are the most significant differences in philosophy. However, the "basic" steps are from a Carr based training system whether they learned it from Rex or not. For example, Lardy did not visit with Rex until the 90's but he saw a certain sequence with Kappes in the early 80's.

All of the above use Operant Conditioning theory but there are considerable differences in how they emphasize + and - P and R for those that care about such things.

I can name a bunch of other pros who use a similar sytem but since they haven't publically documented their training elsewhere, I won't list them. Suffice it to say that almost all of the Field trial professionals use a similar basic sequence but implement in diverse ways.

If you study Rex and his philosophy you will see continual evolution. You will also see that he continually challenged new methods. He would turn over in his grave at the idea that revolutionary new "successful field methods" have been invented in the last 10 years. He would scoff at the idea that a dog could be trained to National levels with clickers/R+ve only. Having said that, he would applaud the refinement of methods to deal with a diversity of dogs and handlers and the challenges of today's field trials.

In his later years, Rex became very adamant about being fair and compassionate towards the dogs and how we train them. That was despite his early emphasis on a "force or compulsion based" approach. His passion and concern for the dogs was extreme.He would easily come to tears talking about some of his great dogs!!!

Unfortunately, in the hands of some, his methods were implemented with far less compassion and concern for the dogs!!

Rex was loved, hated, respected and above all misunderstood at times. He didn't have time for the casual or the unpassionates. His ego about the importance of doing what was best for the dog turned many off.

Clearly, history has already shown the impact of a Carr-based system! I doubt we'll see the likes of it again!

PS. I applaud Vicki's synopsis of Rex as linked above!!!
 
#4 ·
Dennis,
Technically speaking, the training of the root behaviors of Carr-based training is not operant conditioning. Skinner-based operant conditioning deals with the reinforcement of behaviors thru the application of a stimulus (reward or punishment) immediately following the occurrence of that behavior. Thus when a sit occurs and is immediately followed by a reward, then that sit will tend to occur more frequently. When a sit is followed by a punishment, then that sit will tend to occur less frequently.
The root behaviors of Carr-based training are force fetch, force to pile, force to sit, force to come. These are all trained as escape responses. The stimulus (shock) comes before the behavior. The stimulus is applied and the following behavior is guided into the applicable escape response. In force fetch by successive approximation you pinch the ear and guide the behavior into grabbing the dummy. In force to sit, you apply the shock and guide the following behavior into a sit. Operant conditioning doesn’t deal with behaviors that follow the application of the stimulus, be that stimulus positive or be it negative.
Operant condition;
Behavior------------apply stimulus ---------------increase or decrease in that behavior

Escape response
Apply Stimulus --------- behavior (escape response)----------increase whatever that escape response is
 
#8 ·
Maybe a "click"? :D

Evan
 
#18 ·
It's far more than C. just as TRT or Smart Works or Fowl Dog or any of the programs are. The Rex Carr method could hardly be described in a book. I suspect few truly understood it. Perhaps his greatest disciples were Judy Aycock and more recently at the end Dave Rorem. Both would admit they didn't understand it all.

I hope Vicki is still tackling the Rex Carr book project!!
 
#16 · (Edited)
I'm a new student of dog training. The characterization of punishment following failure to obey the sit command etc. as escape behavior confuses me. Characterizing the sit-response as an escape behavior seems semantic.
That's because punishment doesn't generally produce an escape behavior..it generally produces an avoidance behavior.
However a single correction can be applied in such a way that it mimics an escape behavior. And this is with a dog which has never been conditioned through NR methods I don't know why for sure .

But also NR can produce indirect avoidance behaviors.
it all depends what the dog is thinking about at the time of application I guess

Pete
 
#21 ·
Don't think of operant conditioning as a "training method" or something we "do to the dog".

Think of it like gravity. It just is. It's a phenomenon ... a law of nature that exists in the environment and is a reason we learn to do or not do something.

A dog in the wild will learn to "operate" his environment to fulfill his needs, in accordance with the consequences of his actions. When we take that dog in and train him, all we do is control the consequences.

JS
 
#24 ·
If it's not Carr based it probably doesn't follow the basic flow chart for teaching a retriever to handle. That would be all.

Rex gets credit for the flow chart, as Dennis already told you.

I believe people were "force breaking" dogs long before Rex created his basics program.
 
#37 ·
Good point Steve. What should be pointed out in the discussion of force and pressure is that neither word inplies an amount. And neither is synonymous with abuse.

Evan
 
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