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Thread: Carr based training system?

  1. #31
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Each of those steps mentioned has an element of operant conditioning built in.

    teach includes retrieves, which are rewards so it is +r and it includes no retrieve without proper response which is -p, it may also include a little +p if a long line and collar are used to restrain the dog during incorrect responses.

    force generally refers to -r but also includes +p since the dog does get to chase and retrieve in most behvaiors

    no force is again a -r and +p strategy, in this case the -r is the fact that the correct response avoids pressure, promoting speed and accuracy, and again, there are retrieves which are rewards (+r)

    praise = +r if the dog enjoys it

    no praise = -p (withholding something the dog likes due t incorrect behavior)

    Pretty much everything you do, right, wrong or indifferent provides operant conditioning to the dog. Behaviors are promoted and discouraged all day every day.

    Darrin beat me to it. I'm sure details could be added but the point is as Darrin said in the last sentence.

    However, most of the time at the final stage, we are not doing no praise for -P (ie due to incorrect behaviour) but rather because we want the dog so conditioned that he does things automatically, and always(see Fenders 4A's(Acquire, Automatic, Apply, Always, in the current issue of Retrievers ONLINE). We don't intervene directly with - or + R or P. Nontheless, the dog is often rewarded by the bird or the task completion. Dogs know success. They know when life is good.

    To add to the question about Rex's use of the term "fracture" to praise the dog. This is extreme praising verbal and maybe physical. Many trainers cannot seem to bring themselves to this level. It is really sincere and "effusive". Think of good, GOOD, GOOOD! and

    GOOOD DAWG!!!!!!

    This was often done after a struggle or when a dog finally got a difficult task. It was reserved for the special reward. The dog would have no doubt of your intention.
    Dennis

  2. #32
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    . Many trainers cannot seem to bring themselves to this level. It is really sincere and "effusive". Think of good, GOOD, GOOOD! and

    GOOOD DAWG!!!!!!

    This was often done after a struggle or when a dog finally got a difficult task. It was reserved for the special reward. The dog would have no doubt of your intention.
    In Rex's words repeated many times in his efforts to make us better trainers,

    "SAY IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT"!!!!!!!

  3. #33
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Note: I fixed a couple of important typos after Dennis quoted my response.

    Force is -r and +r
    No force is -r and +r

    In both cases I had +p in then description, which was a typo.

    Apologize for any confusion.
    Darrin Greene

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    Darrin beat me to it. I'm sure details could be added but the point is as Darrin said in the last sentence.

    However, most of the time at the final stage, we are not doing no praise for -P (ie due to incorrect behaviour) but rather because we want the dog so conditioned that he does things automatically, and always(see Fenders 4A's(Acquire, Automatic, Apply, Always, in the current issue of Retrievers ONLINE). We don't intervene directly with - or + R or P. Nontheless, the dog is often rewarded by the bird or the task completion. Dogs know success. They know when life is good.

    To add to the question about Rex's use of the term "fracture" to praise the dog. This is extreme praising verbal and maybe physical. Many trainers cannot seem to bring themselves to this level. It is really sincere and "effusive". Think of good, GOOD, GOOOD! and

    GOOOD DAWG!!!!!!

    This was often done after a struggle or when a dog finally got a difficult task. It was reserved for the special reward. The dog would have no doubt of your intention.

    Thanks Dennis , Darrin and Ed....I'm glad you added the comment " say it like you mean it " thanks Ed ....I believe this is a very important part of his training program and most trainers don't use praise enough or correctly ...Steve S

  5. #35
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    Think of good, GOOD, GOOOD! and

    GOOOD DAWG!!!!!!

    This was often done after a struggle or when a dog finally got a difficult task. It was reserved for the special reward. The dog would have no doubt of your intention.
    That's it! I may have some audio somewhere, but Rex had a bit of a canine growl with that GOOD DAWG that dogs really relate to.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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  6. #36
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    I think most get the wrong idea when talking about a force system ...Praise plays a large roll in too....Steve S

  7. #37
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I think most get the wrong idea when talking about a force system ...Praise plays a large roll in too....Steve S
    Good point Steve. What should be pointed out in the discussion of force and pressure is that neither word inplies an amount. And neither is synonymous with abuse.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  8. #38
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I think most get the wrong idea when talking about a force system ...Praise plays a large roll in too....Steve S
    Agreed! Praise can play a role every bit as important as Pressure. That doesn't mean you just use it often. It should be used as carefully and judiciously as Pressure.

    I don't seek to use Force/Pressure to "make a dog do something". Instead use it so that the dog "anticipates" Pressure in the future and thus behaves as taught (and doesn't get Pressure!!!). Dogs seek not getting in trouble. Dogs also seek things they like. Praise can be taught to be something they really like. It can also be a great confirmation of their behaviour.

    Just as we should correct behaviours and not the dog, we should try to praise behaviours and not the dog. Too often, you'll see people praise the dog becasue they themselves feel good about about what the dog did--eg big praise when the dog returns and is back at the truck when the handler is really excited about the dog finding the bird 5 minutes ago!! Too much of that can diminish the value of praise just as nagging with the e-collar can diminish the value of a correction.
    Dennis

  9. #39
    Senior Member BlaineT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    That's it! I may have some audio somewhere, but Rex had a bit of a canine growl with that GOOD DAWG that dogs really relate to.

    Evan
    rorem said, "act like the dog just picked up the final bird in the last series of the nationals..."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Good point Steve. What should be pointed out in the discussion of force and pressure is that neither word inplies an amount. And neither is synonymous with abuse.

    Evan
    Too much praise can have an adverse effect on the dogs ability to control themselves ..As Rex put it " dogs can't stand prosperity" ... Dennis , that stuff at the truck is " salve for the handler " and as you pointed out.it can also be detrimental to the dog in their understanding of why they are getting it..we send so many confusing signals to the dog it is a wonder they ever learn anything ...Steve S

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