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At What Stage Will You Washout a Dog?

9K views 35 replies 21 participants last post by  WRL 
#1 ·
Do you or have you, washed out a dog before ff? What about transition work? At what stage in training, do you determine a dog lacks trainability or marking ability or is lacking in water etc? What are the "key" washout stages for you?
 
#2 ·
When they exhibit a consistent lack of effort regardless of stage.
 
#3 ·
If you are asking the question you probably already know what you are going to do. Howard pointed out on another thread, you are an armature and do not have to train any dog you don't want too. If you are not happy with what you have at this point, move on. Why wait? Waiting will not help you or the dog. Unless you have a personal interest in the dog (your breeding?) wash it out and get started on the next. You have already lost time with this one and will have to start from scratch with the next.
 
#4 ·
I have never washed one out , so I can't give you a difinative answer. If I were ever to consider it though, the one thing I would want to be sure of is that its shortcomings are not of my making.

john
 
#7 ·
John I am not seeing why you posted on this thread since you have no experience washing out dogs??

Most of the dogs I have washed have been after FF because of lack of drive or poor marking. Most have been under 2 but more than 6 months. I washed one just after FF because of kennel pacing. I wanted to wash a young VERY well bred female (NAFC FC X a bitch with 15 or so all age points) at 12 weeks for lack of drive. My pro at the time talked me into keeping her for a while but at 8 months he washed her out. I finished cold blinds with her and sold her to a good HT pro out east and he put a SH on her. I called and asked him if I made a mistake by washing her and he said "NO, I was very lucky to get her through seniors and she will never make a MH."
 
#5 ·
Lee,

I think Corey summed this up pretty well. I will add my thoughts based on the other thread as well as this one.

First a dog has to show me a lot of potential,before we get to FF. If the dog is lacking intelligence, desire, is not birdy etc.etc. they get washed out.

I don't think any trainers enjoy the FF process and I'm pretty sure the dogs don't either. FF will not replace any of the above traits.

With that said: If the dog has shown to be a good candidate start the FF process and finish it.

It won't take long after that to tell what you have.

Since it sounds like you are in the FF process already, I'd finish it and see what you have.

If you still have doubts then move on.... As others have said Life is TOO Short

IMHO... Worth just what you paid for it
 
#12 ·
This isn't about what I would do. I have trained too many dogs to train "dogs that are not fun to train"....as long as they give good effort and are moving forward, I don't wash them out. This is just about what people look for at what time......For me, just preparing to pinch some ears after the first of the year......nine sets....happy happy happy joy joy.WRL
 
#6 · (Edited)
I have only ever washed out 2 dogs in my life. One was for incurable gunshyness. This was before the days of the internet and I couldn't fix it. He was a good dog but useless to me.

The other was because he just didn't want to do it. He would do the work, reluctantly, and with very little style. I was not pleased at all by the dog. I think that is where I draw the line. If you are working the dog and thinking "I just don't like this dog." Wash him and get another one. My next dog after that one was great. I am an amateur and life is too short for dogs that aren't that into me. That dog did not make it through force fetch. We started it and somewhere in there I decided it wasn't going to work out.

When is it time to wash a dog? It's like pronography, it's hard to define, but I know it when I see it.
 
#8 ·
I think every dog deserves three months. If I'm not happy after that I tell the owner. I have had to do this a few times. Generally it has been for the lack of "want to" at whatever stage the dog was at.
 
#10 ·
Lee, I guess it depends what you are washing from. If your goal is an FC then at the point it is determined that the dog just does'nt have the skills to get there. If for a hunting dog when there is a lack of drive and desire.I won't keep a dog that I just don't see having fun hunting.If you're not having fun training then that should tell you something.

Jeff
 
#11 ·
i'll assume that we are talking about a competitive dog, not a gun dog.
The # one thing i looked for in any beginner dog when i trained for field trials was, HOW HE HANDLED PRESSURE. i consistently overrode instincts with discipline to get a dog to all-age status; of course i trained at a different time than most of you. To compete with a average dog, you have to make him obedient.
GG
 
#14 ·
I am not trying to start anything but this seems like a long time to wait to wash out a dog that really can't mark or does not have any drive.....I am training for a FC AFC or MH at least. I guess it depends on what your goals are. The trainers I use understand my goals and we have washed them earlier.

I have also had dogs that really did not enjoy advanced training but their new owners LOVE the heck out of them and spoil the crap out of them....I got 2 texts this week from people who got "wash outs" from me with pictures of them with ducks. Happy happy happy!
 
#17 ·
I agree Jacob. It has to be pretty bizarre and out there.

A young dogs nervous system is getting slammed with so much stimulation and pressure. There's no way they can show their true potential before the yard is done at least.

Angie
 
#22 ·
When I started in this sport I was looking for a well mannered hunting companion & had decided to get a lab. I was fortunate enough to meet Bob Sparks & he became somewhat my mentor in the sport. He liked me because I never felt any task was beneath me & was available to train because I did shift work.

He had this young dog that had been given to him by Henry Seidell. It was from a litter that all the pups had been sold except this one so Henry got him to take it at 6 months with very little training other than socialization. The dog went through what we in those days considered training including FF & was well mannered but was having his issues, none caused by a lack of effort.

Come the MT state trial in early July 1964. the dog was unable to find a single in the Derby & needless to say Bob was not real happy. He asked me if I would like to buy him for $300 as he knew I really like the dog but I declined as I had committed to another pup which I got the following week. I would note here that this was fortunate for the dog as I was pretty green as a trainer & had a few preconceptions that time has removed.

About 2 weeks later Bob says to me as we're training, the dog came to the line, looked out into the field & it was as if a light had come on - he said I could see the "so this is what I'm supposed to do" look on his face. The dog went on to run 9 derby's & accumulate 30 points - 5 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 2 greenies.

While there is more to the story the dog went on to move through the Q & into the AA - & you would know him as 1967 NFC Butte's Blue Moon. As Rudy Deering (for those of you who have been around for a while) stated "probably the greatest marker he had ever seen".

That's why I stated in my post that effort is important as I've seen the resultant patience rewarded with the right dog :).
 
#24 ·
When my wife says it's O.K. haha My wife and I have agreed on 3 dogs max in the house. So, washing a dog out is not taken lightly. We both have busy lives and other hobbies. That being said, we give them more then every opportunity to succeed. Definitely get them through the stresses of yard work before you make a decision. We had a young dog with a pro for the winter last year. She was having a very hard time getting through the pressure of yard work, while maintaining her attitude in the field. We gave her time and she pulled through. This summer training with me, she went 8 for 8 in JH and SH , made it to the end in 2 derbies, and ran her first master. Back with a pro this winter to polish her up. She also did well in the duck blind and goose fields. I guess we'll keep her.
 
#27 ·
As a gun dog trainer, washouts are pretty rare. Most of the dogs are also family pets, so my job is to get 100% of whatever that dog's capabilities are...which, while it may not be what I would personally want, usually makes the owners pretty happy.

I did have one here that I tried, really hard, to wash out. Wife had bought her from an internet "breeder" to surprise husband. (2tall/Carol and Ralph were here that summer...there are witnesses ;) ). This dog had no prey drive, was sulky, sullen and just plain miserable to try and work with. Additionally, she was incredibly soft. I told the owners after two months that they should take her home and let he be a pet... the husband actively participated in the training and knew everything that was going on. I really encouraged them to save their money...but they said "keep going...we don't care how long it takes." Big sigh....Me: "but she has no prey drive and doesn't want to retrieve at all, not even in play". Them: "Keep trying." It was hell. I hated it...the dog sulked and complained...but six months in, we had a major come to Jesus meeting, the likes of which I have never had with any dog before....and she started to come around and got better. He did get to hunt over her that fall, and she did learn to like birds and retrieving and they are happy with her. Of course, thanks to the "breeder" that won't stand behind the guarantee, they also now have a 2 year old dog with hip dysplasia and cataracts....and who also just had her first TPLO surgery. The dog was a train wreck from the get-go...but her owners love her and want to do everything they can for her.

I will say that dogs like her are the kind I learn the most from. The talented ones are easy. ;)
 
#31 ·
Remember her well! I will never forget your "tent revival" session! I also remember one day when the owner was there and Ralph was running around the field acting like a complete madman/idiot to get her just to look out and get excited. He did get her to chase HIM for a few seconds, but I dont remember if she ever got the duck! I guess if they love her and are willing to pay all those vet bills she is in the best home she could of ever wanted. Nice, nice people.
 
#30 ·
sometimes i think that because a dog can't communicate verbally that they are "washing us out". i am trying to get my pup to look out past the short gun and i see them thinking, "i just want to go hunting, i aint doing that 450 yard long bird thrown by that doofus in the white coat! THIS JUST AINT FOR ME!" most times i believe they tell you what they want to do.

then if you find that the dog's interests and yours are not compatible, WHAM find them a new home(like helen and don did)! puttin a square peg in a round hole is frustrating for you and the dog. so i say, wash them out whenever you see it just is not going to work. it's not like you are married to the dog.......oh wait......i washed out a first marriage too!

my son just walked by, looked over my shoulder and said, "hey dad, mom thinks she washed you out!";-)
 
#32 ·
At the end of week one and there still crapping in house or the first turd
I step in there gone. Unless there really cute I might give them a second
Chance but if they continue to crap or pee in house after week two there
Gone. Unless they show potential. But if they don't show potential by week three
There gone. But if they are really cute and show potential and will take to my puppy
Basics program I might give them till week four Even if they are still crapping in house but if they
Are still peeing in house there gone.
 
#33 ·
I guess you have to define "wash out" Lee.

I have seen a lot of dogs now, being involved in the stuff I've done the last couple of years. None of them were "wash outs" though. I've seen a whole bunch of dogs being asked to do work they didn't have the drive, intelligence or perseverance for, but I've never seen a washout. A dog that isn't a field trial dog might be a hunter, or a search and rescue dog, or a bomb dog, or a therapy dog, or someone's best buddy.

I've seen a lot of dogs put into the wrong role by humans, but I have never seen one that didn't fit somewhere, with someone to love them.

I'm sure there are those so nervous or aggressive that they can't live anywhere really, but I haven't seen a retriever yet that I would put in that bucket.
 
#34 ·
Very good point Darrin....

I read the OP as washing out a FT prospect.

HT,gundog,companion,bomb dog, etc. etc. all have different criteria.

Most retrievers will fit in somewhere.......most want to please
 
#35 · (Edited)
Ok
Truth no funnies
I let pups interact with Sophie and sense pyzon is
Gone now it wil be for now Sophie only I let them
Be dogs a lot of horse play. I teach basics as the pup as fast as possible I never stay on anything long move move move get it down and move on. If pup isn't getting the picture review and move on if Pup still dont get it review . Mark mark mark mark mark.................... If pup ain't getting it ain't understanding quality marks "can see to ground" then there might be a problem.
I see a lot of the time folks marking young dogs and the marks are are not good for young pups they are not straight forward most beginners and a lot of veterans don't understand that we need to teach a pup to mark. Most pups can be taught to mark but YOU need to teach them to use there eyes very few are born with it but if I can teach them to find birds they have a chance. Keep it fun and keep it as hard as pup allows and you won't wash a dog as often.I've had a lot of pups and only had a couple that with the right training couldn't have made it as a competitor. Now understand competitor not an FC -afc most quality breeding don't need to be washed us as trainiers need to be better.
So there are the counterfeit mutts that need a pet home when they continually show signs of not wanting the birds after all the coaxing I've gave them as puppies with tons of live pidgeons massive puppy marks lots of praise. Then I wash them
 
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