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Thread: FTP eye contact

  1. #11
    Junior Member frederjj's Avatar
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    I completely agree with Evan and say this is a good thing that the dog wants to get to the pile. However, I believe it is showing a little too much “self employment.” One thing that I have done in this situation is the use of indirect pressure to reinforce the idea to the pup that they need to work with me not independently. For example, the dog is in the remote sit position and looking over their right shoulder towards the pile. I would raise my right hand and send then on back. Now the dog will go ahead and continue to turn over their right shoulder (the wrong way), I leave my hand up and will then give them a NO HERE and an appropriate nick. You then re-sit and repeat... Make sure to mix it up so sometimes the dog turns the correct way even without looking at you. I found that it is important to leave your arm up so the dog can see it either after the correction or getting the bumper to make the connection. Soon the dog will start to realize that if it works with you it can get the bumper without having to be stopped.

    Now this cannot be done without your dog understanding three handed casting or being properly conditioned. YOU must be able to read your dog to know if this is an appropriate technique.

  2. #12
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    3 hand cast,,, really?? He just got done with FTP. That's what dogs do after that kind of force work. Who cares if he looks into your eyes. Cast him and if he makes a mistake stop him again and recast. Don't fret about the window dressing. Work on the lesson.

    For every dog that looks into my eyes I have 3 that don't. Don't worry about it.

    Call your pro! They are your first line of defense and offense.

    Angie

  3. #13
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    Use the ole stand-by to get the dog to turn completely around and face you ....the rope ...Shorten the distance to the back pile and wear gloves ...bring the dog to a smooth slow stop , not a jerk ...if necessary give a tug to get the dog to face you...repeat , repeat ,repeat...the dog will get the message....Steve S

  4. #14
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie B View Post
    3 hand cast,,, really?? He just got done with FTP. That's what dogs do after that kind of force work. Who cares if he looks into your eyes. Cast him and if he makes a mistake stop him again and recast. Don't fret about the window dressing. Work on the lesson.

    For every dog that looks into my eyes I have 3 that don't. Don't worry about it.

    Call your pro! They are your first line of defense and offense.

    Angie
    for what it's worth ,,,, prolly not much,,,but, I wholeheartedly agree with this.
    You cast enough times when they aren't looking, then stop them for the mistake and react, you will be surprised how quickly they learn to look T you.

    Same deal when you start your first cold blinds.dont stand there waiting for them to look, you'll be there all day. Just cast, teach them to handle.

    Gooser
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  5. #15
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Wait

    Are we talking FTP or STP(sit to pile) Title ays FTP,, but you state you are sitting the dog on a whistle?
    So,, are you on Sit To Pile??
    Dog isn't being required to stop and sit on FTP. (Force to pile)

    Ftp,, you are applying force from the remote sit to the backpile,, looking for good desire to go,,and good attitude with the pressure.. Look for flaring ,, shopping the pile, and a quick return, with a good sit at remote position..
    Then comparing what you got when NO Force is given.

    I wouldnt care if they looked at me or not here either,, Just GO when I say back!!! I proof wih a calm, verbal only back, without arm, and see if they really dig back on the verbal.
    Just GO!!!!!!
    gooser
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 01-03-2013 at 12:21 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #16
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie B View Post
    3 hand cast,,, really?? He just got done with FTP.
    And it's resulted in a problem; an easy one, but a problem. What is the objection to sound training? 3-handed casting is a simple, well-controlled environment in which to work out simple, fundamental issues like eye contact. If you can't get decent eye contact when the dog is 10 feet away, why would he make eye contact at 100 yards or more? If he doesn't make eye contact, why would he take accurate casts? I get the impression this trainer is a newer, possibly first time trainer, not a seasoned pro. A simple easy to control drill like 3-handed casting is just the ticket to put his dog together well in this basic handling situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angie B View Post
    Call your pro! They are your first line of defense and offense.

    Angie
    If you paid a pro, and the pro did the basic handling work, you have every right to call and get answers. That's a good route to take. You may want to ask how well he developed two-hands Back.

    Evan
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyLight View Post
    ... The pile is about 50 yards... I've been stopping him on the return and just started stopping him as he goes out... I usually stop him about 20 yards out. He doesn't have any problem turning around and sitting, .
    stop him a bit sooner, 20 is almost halfway to pile. too much steam built up.
    first stop hit the whistle soon, tell him he is good and send him quick. no need to sweat, your teaching and "Playing".
    re-read Angie's post above as well.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    You might go back to three handed casting and work on the eye contact as he will be very close to you. And then on FTP try stopping very close to you and gradually work out longer. The other thing you could try is put him in a remote sit position, very close to you, and send him just like on the back on three handed casting except the pile is further.

    I am assuming you had good eye contact orginally on three handed casting. If you didn't that is the place to work on the problem.

    I should have asked how far was he when you stopped him in route to the pile? How far is the bumper pile?
    This is my first thought when I read the OP. I would probably go back to 3-hand, likely making a type of game/drill out of it to make it fun and work on focusing on my hands there. i dont think I would wear this out too much though if it wasn't an extreme problem.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    This is my first thought when I read the OP. I would probably go back to 3-hand, likely making a type of game/drill out of it to make it fun and work on focusing on my hands there.
    That's a good point. I approach 3-handed casting as something of a game for the dog anyway; lots of praise, and I make it easy for the dog to succeed. It's all done on a rope, so control is easy, effective, and very low-pressure. Give your dog a reason to want eye contact. He should look forward to compliance, not merely be forced into it.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    That's a good point. I approach 3-handed casting as something of a game for the dog anyway; lots of praise, and I make it easy for the dog to succeed. It's all done on a rope, so control is easy, effective, and very low-pressure. Give your dog a reason to want eye contact. He should look forward to compliance, not merely be forced into it.

    Evan
    true, true, true!! and when -7 like today can even be done inside. Yes it can.
    Evan, have you ever had a chance to see Lorie Jolly's book?
    She is doing it as a parlor trick with puppies on the livingroom floor and then transfering to lawn.
    YOUNG pups!
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

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