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FTP eye contact

8K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  Evan 
#1 ·
Working on Force to Pile and having a hard time getting the dog to look at me... Tried holding a bumper and saying hey hey and then sending him after he makes eye contact, but he figured that trick out really quick. I have a lead on him and even when I tug on it and get him to square up he still doesn't want to look at me and wait for my hand signal. He runs great from my side, sits on the whistle and will come in from the pile so he definitely knows what's expected he just doesn't want to look at me in remote sit. I can't tell if he is just so glued to the pile that he doesn't want to look at me or if it is avoidance behavior... I'm starting to think it is avoidance... Any suggestions?
 
#2 · (Edited)
You might go back to three handed casting and work on the eye contact as he will be very close to you. And then on FTP try stopping very close to you and gradually work out longer. The other thing you could try is put him in a remote sit position, very close to you, and send him just like on the back on three handed casting except the pile is further.

I am assuming you had good eye contact orginally on three handed casting. If you didn't that is the place to work on the problem.

I should have asked how far was he when you stopped him in route to the pile? How far is the bumper pile?
 
#18 ·
This is my first thought when I read the OP. I would probably go back to 3-hand, likely making a type of game/drill out of it to make it fun and work on focusing on my hands there. i dont think I would wear this out too much though if it wasn't an extreme problem.
 
#4 ·
Wayne, definitely a good suggestion to go back and review three handed casting... The pile is about 50 yards... I've been stopping him on the return and just started stopping him as he goes out... I usually stop him about 20 yards out. He doesn't have any problem turning around and sitting, but the way he responds to the sit whistle is almost like it is a correction rather than a command. He has a tendency to hang his head when I blow the whistle.

we'll back up a step to 3 handed casting and see how that helps with eye contact.
 
#17 ·
... The pile is about 50 yards... I've been stopping him on the return and just started stopping him as he goes out... I usually stop him about 20 yards out. He doesn't have any problem turning around and sitting, .
stop him a bit sooner, 20 is almost halfway to pile. too much steam built up.
first stop hit the whistle soon, tell him he is good and send him quick. no need to sweat, your teaching and "Playing".
re-read Angie's post above as well.
 
#5 ·
Working on Force to Pile and having a hard time getting the dog to look at me... Tried holding a bumper and saying hey hey and then sending him after he makes eye contact, but he figured that trick out really quick. I have a lead on him and even when I tug on it and get him to square up he still doesn't want to look at me and wait for my hand signal. He runs great from my side, sits on the whistle and will come in from the pile so he definitely knows what's expected he just doesn't want to look at me in remote sit. I can't tell if he is just so glued to the pile that he doesn't want to look at me or if it is avoidance behavior... I'm starting to think it is avoidance... Any suggestions?
Try tossing that bumper a few times and see if he will loosen up .....as stated, I too believe it is avoidance behavior due to pressure ...lighten up ...more free stuff...By tossing the bumper he has to make a conscious effort to pay more attention to what is going to happen next...Steve S
 
#6 ·
Bobby, I am training one now who did the same. Classic avoidance, I started sending from my side and stopping in route and the problem fixed its self. Sweating them before second cast back to pile usually will get them looking at ya then.
 
#8 ·
I've tried the "look" command... tried going back to 3 handed casting... and tried sending from the side and stopping him half way out... still wants to stair at that back pile so I'm confident that it is strictly avoidance behavior...

My initial thought is to correct with indirect pressure by doing "sit" nick "sit"... but if he is having trouble handling the pressure already will that help or make the problem worse? I throw lots of fun bumpers during out pile work to keep his spirits up, and he does have a tendency to be a little softer under pressure, but I also don't want him to exploit that softness and take advantage of it.
 
#9 ·
I've tried the "look" command... tried going back to 3 handed casting... and tried sending from the side and stopping him half way out... still wants to stair at that back pile so I'm confident that it is strictly avoidance behavior...
I wouldn't look at it as avoidance, but rather that he attracted to the pile he knows, and has been forced to. He's eager to get there. You should feel good about that because it's a result of successful training. Three-handed casting is the logical venue to work on this.

I'm not a fan of the "look" cue. To me, that's begging a dog to do his job, rather than providing him reason to do it.
My initial thought is to correct with indirect pressure by doing "sit" nick "sit"... but if he is having trouble handling the pressure already will that help or make the problem worse?
Yes. But don't forget to condition him to pressure, and use it appropriately. Nicking him to get eye contact is likely to cause bugging for a couple reasons. First, he very likely won't connect eye contact as a way to turn off the pressure. But I'm wondering if he's been trained in two-hands Back? If he has, that may lead to a workable solution.

Evan
 
#10 ·
Evan,

Thanks for the response... yes we have been working on two-hands back, but it is by no means firmed up... he definitely has drive a desire to get to the pile, and I havn't had to fight him on no goes, but he will not look at me which makes giving and teaching hand signals for the back cast difficult.

He has been conditioned to pressure, and I've been using very little with him lately trying to let him build up some confidence. I may try removing the back pile for three handed casting and just work the over piles for a while to see if that gets him to focus on me more.
 
#11 ·
I completely agree with Evan and say this is a good thing that the dog wants to get to the pile. However, I believe it is showing a little too much “self employment.” One thing that I have done in this situation is the use of indirect pressure to reinforce the idea to the pup that they need to work with me not independently. For example, the dog is in the remote sit position and looking over their right shoulder towards the pile. I would raise my right hand and send then on back. Now the dog will go ahead and continue to turn over their right shoulder (the wrong way), I leave my hand up and will then give them a NO HERE and an appropriate nick. You then re-sit and repeat... Make sure to mix it up so sometimes the dog turns the correct way even without looking at you. I found that it is important to leave your arm up so the dog can see it either after the correction or getting the bumper to make the connection. Soon the dog will start to realize that if it works with you it can get the bumper without having to be stopped.

Now this cannot be done without your dog understanding three handed casting or being properly conditioned. YOU must be able to read your dog to know if this is an appropriate technique.
 
#12 ·
3 hand cast,,, really?? He just got done with FTP. That's what dogs do after that kind of force work. Who cares if he looks into your eyes. Cast him and if he makes a mistake stop him again and recast. Don't fret about the window dressing. Work on the lesson.

For every dog that looks into my eyes I have 3 that don't. Don't worry about it.

Call your pro! They are your first line of defense and offense. :cool:

Angie
 
#14 ·
for what it's worth ,,,, prolly not much,,,but, I wholeheartedly agree with this.
You cast enough times when they aren't looking, then stop them for the mistake and react, you will be surprised how quickly they learn to look T you.

Same deal when you start your first cold blinds.dont stand there waiting for them to look, you'll be there all day. Just cast, teach them to handle.

Gooser
 
#16 ·
3 hand cast,,, really?? He just got done with FTP.
And it's resulted in a problem; an easy one, but a problem. What is the objection to sound training? 3-handed casting is a simple, well-controlled environment in which to work out simple, fundamental issues like eye contact. If you can't get decent eye contact when the dog is 10 feet away, why would he make eye contact at 100 yards or more? If he doesn't make eye contact, why would he take accurate casts? I get the impression this trainer is a newer, possibly first time trainer, not a seasoned pro. A simple easy to control drill like 3-handed casting is just the ticket to put his dog together well in this basic handling situation.
Call your pro! They are your first line of defense and offense. :cool:

Angie
If you paid a pro, and the pro did the basic handling work, you have every right to call and get answers. That's a good route to take. You may want to ask how well he developed two-hands Back.

Evan
 
#13 ·
Use the ole stand-by to get the dog to turn completely around and face you ....the rope ...Shorten the distance to the back pile and wear gloves ...bring the dog to a smooth slow stop , not a jerk ...if necessary give a tug to get the dog to face you...repeat , repeat ,repeat...the dog will get the message....Steve S
 
#15 · (Edited)
Wait

Are we talking FTP or STP(sit to pile) Title ays FTP,, but you state you are sitting the dog on a whistle?
So,, are you on Sit To Pile??
Dog isn't being required to stop and sit on FTP. (Force to pile)

Ftp,, you are applying force from the remote sit to the backpile,, looking for good desire to go,,and good attitude with the pressure.. Look for flaring ,, shopping the pile, and a quick return, with a good sit at remote position..
Then comparing what you got when NO Force is given.

I wouldnt care if they looked at me or not here either,, Just GO when I say back!!! I proof wih a calm, verbal only back, without arm, and see if they really dig back on the verbal.
Just GO!!!!!!
gooser
 
#21 ·
No, Ken, and I'd really like to. I trained with Lorie when I was winter training in the Southeast years ago. Nice lady, and very dog smart!

Evan
 
#23 ·
I called my recent puppy back to me about 1/3 of the time in FTP to cure this. That way, she was never sure whether she was going to the back pile or coming in to me when she was stopped. When I did bring her in I gave her a retrieve, so she always got rewarded and things stayed upbeat. Being called in to me wasn't a punishment or removal of any rewards, just something else she was being asked to do. We did plenty of sends to the back pile with pressure to solidify the "go" command, but when I stop you, it's just because I want you to do something else, so look at me and I'll show you...
 
#24 ·
Evan, you're definitely right, this is my first dog to train so I'm as "new" a trainer as you can get.

Angie! I'll definitely call the pros first next time! I just wanted to give you and Tim atleast a week off from my million questions!!

Bean is quickly learning to watch me or he has to stop and get a new cast... Did a morning session and afternoon session today and he did awesome both times! Tim told me to do less trips to the pile and it really changed his performance and attitude. Thanks for all y'all's help! We'll be out sometime next week to run some marks.
 
#25 ·
And it's resulted in a problem; an easy one, but a problem. What is the objection to sound training? 3-handed casting is a simple, well-controlled environment in which to work out simple, fundamental issues like eye contact. If you can't get decent eye contact when the dog is 10 feet away, why would he make eye contact at 100 yards or more? If he doesn't make eye contact, why would he take accurate casts? I get the impression this trainer is a newer, possibly first time trainer, not a seasoned pro. A simple easy to control drill like 3-handed casting is just the ticket to put his dog together well in this basic handling situation.
I'm laughing now,,,, You said yourself why the dog isn't making eye contact. It's the forced compulsion to the pile!!.. So instead of moving to another drill to get us all warm and fuzzy? How about working on the eye contact in the drill you're working on? Lots of good suggestions. Moving up,, tossing a bumper, calling in, casting and letting the dog make the mistake for not "listening" to what you're trying to tell them. Maybe even putting a dog on a rope again until the new first time dog trainer and dog get to know one another??

3 hand cast is fine but dollars to donuts the dog won't generalize the eye contact from the fun happy casting drill to the pile scenario which has had all the pressure associated with it. Dogs don't generalize well. I repeat,,,, Dogs don't generalize well especially when they are young and under pressure!!

3 hand cast for me is 1) a puppy game or 2) done right before T,, that's a single "T" btw.... ;)

Angie
 
#26 ·
I'm laughing now,,,, You said yourself why the dog isn't making eye contact. It's the forced compulsion to the pile!!.. So instead of moving to another drill to get us all warm and fuzzy? How about working on the eye contact in the drill you're working on?

Angie
Because I follow a time honored principle of dog training; "Simplify". To you 3-handed casting is a puppy game. Okay. To me it evolves into a working drill to teach fundamental casts. In that process essential basic skills begin to form, including making eye contact. Once this dog acquires a reason to want to make eye contact his basic handling work can progress. Why does the idea of simplifying these tasks bother you so much?

Evan
 
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