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Thread: Pup is sloppy to sit in the field.

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    Default Pup is sloppy to sit in the field.

    Gauge is sloppy with this. Anywhere close to me he does great (one peep on the whistle or "sit" command). But when he is in the field he will creep to a stop over a distance of 10-20 feet. Or it may take 2-3 times on the whistle to get him stopped. I refuse to accept that.

    He is 11 months old and he is a Boykin. He lines well and marks pretty good. He heels nicely and is steady to shot. His enthusiasm is great.

    I ordered a lot of material on FF and CC. I am half way through reading and watching videos. I have never FF'd before but wanted to put him thru it to make him crisp.

    So far the materials do not cover this issue. Nothing I have read has covered sloppy sit in the field.

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    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Lardy deals with this in his TT session on his dvd TRT 2 ed. If you have Lardy's dvds or access to them I can give you a more specific locaton.

    Is he collar conditioned to sit. FF with ecollar, FTP with ecollar?

    He says, and I had to do this with Hank (by Pirate). After he acknowledges the first sit whistle by slowing down, starting to turn, etc. Then blow the sit whistle again and nick the dog on momentary. This is the same for slow sit or loopy sit.

    Don't nick him on the first whistle.

    Lardy does a much better job of explaining this than I do.

    Hope this helps. A cautionary note, this is for Labs, Goldens, etc. I don't know much about Boykins.
    Wayne Nutt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauge123 View Post
    Gauge is sloppy with this. Anywhere close to me he does great (one peep on the whistle or "sit" command). But when he is in the field he will creep to a stop over a distance of 10-20 feet. Or it may take 2-3 times on the whistle to get him stopped. I refuse to accept that.

    He is 11 months old and he is a Boykin. He lines well and marks pretty good. He heels nicely and is steady to shot. His enthusiasm is great.

    I ordered a lot of material on FF and CC. I am half way through reading and watching videos. I have never FF'd before but wanted to put him thru it to make him crisp.

    So far the materials do not cover this issue. Nothing I have read has covered sloppy sit in the field.
    I wouldn't use a ton of pressure that's for sure. What program are you using and are you thoroughly through the yard with him? To try and stop him before he's done with the yard is asking for trouble and why would you? He's not ready yet. Even then Boykins take a long time to process their training and to transfer,,, so I would have a lot more patience and back off for now and get his basics done.

    How's his marking and how long are they? Have you introduced multiples yet??

    Angie

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    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    I feel your pain.
    Renee P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauge123 View Post
    Gauge is sloppy with this. Anywhere close to me he does great (one peep on the whistle or "sit" command). But when he is in the field he will creep to a stop over a distance of 10-20 feet. Or it may take 2-3 times on the whistle to get him stopped. I refuse to accept that.

    He is 11 months old and he is a Boykin. He lines well and marks pretty good. He heels nicely and is steady to shot. His enthusiasm is great.

    I ordered a lot of material on FF and CC. I am half way through reading and watching videos. I have never FF'd before but wanted to put him thru it to make him crisp.

    So far the materials do not cover this issue. Nothing I have read has covered sloppy sit in the field.
    Are we expecting results too soon ? With out knowing how long you have been working at this I wonder ...Are you gradually moving further away or making big jumps ....At your side to 10-20 feet away ...try 3 feet then 5 then 7 then 10 ...They are situational learners...and generalize slowly over time ...A sit up close doesn't transfer to the dog at a greater distance as being the same thing....Did you teach here or heel before you taught sit? A rope around a pole or tree can be used to stop the dog or a friend with another rope on the dog ....Steve S
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 01-02-2013 at 11:38 PM.

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    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauge123 View Post
    Gauge is sloppy with this. Anywhere close to me he does great (one peep on the whistle or "sit" command). But when he is in the field he will creep to a stop over a distance of 10-20 feet. Or it may take 2-3 times on the whistle to get him stopped. I refuse to accept that.

    He is 11 months old and he is a Boykin. He lines well and marks pretty good. He heels nicely and is steady to shot. His enthusiasm is great.

    I ordered a lot of material on FF and CC. I am half way through reading and watching videos. I have never FF'd before but wanted to put him thru it to make him crisp.

    So far the materials do not cover this issue. Nothing I have read has covered sloppy sit in the field.
    Far be it for me to offer advice on training techniques in the US ! I can only offer a suggestion how this would be approached in the UK.
    ......
    The dog is already steady to shot as you say,so if a remote bumper was placed some 100 metres in front of the dog,and you then cast the dog towards the bumper and blew the whistle at the same time as firing the bumper the dog would sit !? to the shot and whistle together? (the same could be achieved with a helper and a starting pistol) If at the same time as you blew your stop whistle, you had your arm raised,and held that position for a moment or two (then increase the time,through repetition), and ultimately,reduced the shot with the exercise and the bumper in the air?.>> the dog should figure out , that it only get's the retrieve by following the process of ''stop/sit/wait/look for direction''.
    A great exercise,when progressed onto 'blinds' placed in different positions by using left/hand and right/hand backs for more accurate and confidence building for the dog.
    ......
    Just my 'UK' slant on it?.....can't think why it would interfere with any other programme you have already started on?, unless some of the more learned 'US' trainers can advise ,of which I would unaware of.
    ....
    ATB
    Last edited by polmaise; 01-03-2013 at 04:13 AM.
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    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    If at the same time as you blew your stop whistle, you had your arm raised,and held that position for a moment or two (then increase the time,through repetition), and ultimately,reduced the shot with the exercise and the bumper in the air?.>> the dog should figure out , that it only get's the retrieve by following the process of ''stop/sit/wait/look for direction''.
    Robt., the hitch here is we don't used the upraised arm for stopping, but for casting back. So if the dog stopped, turned and saw an upraised arm, it would likely eschew the sit and go straight for the bumper.

    Remote sits are actually pretty easy to teach spaniels (good "huppers" from birth) - or any gundogs; myself, haven't had to use a rope or an assistant yet. Better still it's not even yard work but "house work." Should preface by noting that firstly (or first over here), the sit or hup gets imparted during e-collar conditioning via both verbal and whistle commands. But that's as done as the dog's heeling alongside. Remote sits - crisp sits - are another kettle of ling cod.

    Still, either in conjunction with e-collar training or before it starts, stopping a spaniel (or any retriever) on the way out - or on the way in - can be done with the most basic of training tools - the food bowl. Sit meaning sit, and the whistle blast being synonymous with sit, it's as easy as blowing it and stopping (sitting) (hupping) the dog on the way to its food bowl. You start by standing over the food bowl and releasing the dog remotely, say 20-25 feet away, for its dinner. As it gets halfway to "chow hound touchdown," blow the sit whistle. If the dog barges through the stop sign you take it back to its original starting point. Release the dog again remotely and as it's en route, blow the whistle again. If the dog sits, praise it, wait a couple of seconds, then blow the come-in whistle for din-din.

    Next is stopping it on the run out, as y'all say. This time you stand alongside the dog, with the dinner bowl 25-30 feet away. Send the dog on "Back!" for its supper. If the dog ignores the whistle, you hustle yourself to the food bowl almost as fast as the dog's gotten there and pick up the bowl, depriving the dog of its food. Heel the dog back to the original starting point, send again on "Back!", blow the whistle. If the pup stops, and sits, you get it to turn around and look at you by doing whatever you must to establish visual contact. Then count 1001-1002 and say the magic word "Back!" again for the pup's receiving its reward - whatever fine charcuterie you've chosen to sustain it as a gundog.

    It's not all positive but it ain't done with a lot of negative reinforcement either - the e-collar doesn't figure into such "training" at all. And situational learners notwithstanding (for they are just that), this remote sit transfers pretty seamlessly to the field with longer distances moving right along.

    MG

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauge123 View Post
    Gauge is sloppy with this. Anywhere close to me he does great (one peep on the whistle or "sit" command). But when he is in the field he will creep to a stop over a distance of 10-20 feet. Or it may take 2-3 times on the whistle to get him stopped. I refuse to accept that.

    He is 11 months old and he is a Boykin. He lines well and marks pretty good. He heels nicely and is steady to shot. His enthusiasm is great.

    I ordered a lot of material on FF and CC. I am half way through reading and watching videos. I have never FF'd before but wanted to put him thru it to make him crisp.

    So far the materials do not cover this issue. Nothing I have read has covered sloppy sit in the field.
    What materials?

    Aside from techniques, I'm curious about your read of this little guy. I am very fond of Boykin's, to the point that I've pretty well decided my next hunting dog will probably be one of them. But in my experience with them I've seen a fairly high percentage that I would call bona fide alpha. In fact, the first Boykin I worked with in the field was a very talented big time alpha that would not sit to a whistle. He'd stop, but not sit. If you know alpha dogs, and how they do business, you've seen this type of thing. Do you see him as an alpha-type of guy?

    Evan
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    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Robt., the hitch here is we don't used the upraised arm for stopping, but for casting back. So if the dog stopped, turned and saw an upraised arm, it would likely eschew the sit and go straight for the bumper.

    Remote sits are actually pretty easy to teach spaniels (good "huppers" from birth) - or any gundogs; myself, haven't had to use a rope or an assistant yet. Better still it's not even yard work but "house work." Should preface by noting that firstly (or first over here), the sit or hup gets imparted during e-collar conditioning via both verbal and whistle commands. But that's as done as the dog's heeling alongside. Remote sits - crisp sits - are another kettle of ling cod.

    Still, either in conjunction with e-collar training or before it starts, stopping a spaniel (or any retriever) on the way out - or on the way in - can be done with the most basic of training tools - the food bowl. Sit meaning sit, and the whistle blast being synonymous with sit, it's as easy as blowing it and stopping (sitting) (hupping) the dog on the way to its food bowl. You start by standing over the food bowl and releasing the dog remotely, say 20-25 feet away, for its dinner. As it gets halfway to "chow hound touchdown," blow the sit whistle. If the dog barges through the stop sign you take it back to its original starting point. Release the dog again remotely and as it's en route, blow the whistle again. If the dog sits, praise it, wait a couple of seconds, then blow the come-in whistle for din-din.

    Next is stopping it on the run out, as y'all say. This time you stand alongside the dog, with the dinner bowl 25-30 feet away. Send the dog on "Back!" for its supper. If the dog ignores the whistle, you hustle yourself to the food bowl almost as fast as the dog's gotten there and pick up the bowl, depriving the dog of its food. Heel the dog back to the original starting point, send again on "Back!", blow the whistle. If the pup stops, and sits, you get it to turn around and look at you by doing whatever you must to establish visual contact. Then count 1001-1002 and say the magic word "Back!" again for the pup's receiving its reward - whatever fine charcuterie you've chosen to sustain it as a gundog.

    It's not all positive but it ain't done with a lot of negative reinforcement either - the e-collar doesn't figure into such "training" at all. And situational learners notwithstanding (for they are just that), this remote sit transfers pretty seamlessly to the field with longer distances moving right along.

    MG
    Thanks for the clarification 'for me' MG...I suppose my next question would be Why is a 'sit' required? if you were trying to achieve a stop/stay where you are?
    Over here, it is often in early training at close quarters the sit on a stop,but through progression of training a 'stop' and stand still is more of an advantage for what is likely to 'come next'.
    I have had a few Spaniels,and the odd Retriever ,that kinda 'Hovered' it's rear end on a stop (in anticipation) but they all stopped! and stayed there for the next command.
    With some of those (without a training programme like you guy's) they have tended to ''creep'' the more I tried to achieve a 'sit' ON STOP.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

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    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    I suppose my next question would be Why is a 'sit' required? if you were trying to achieve a stop/stay where you are? Over here, it is often in early training at close quarters the sit on a stop,but through progression of training a 'stop' and stand still is more of an advantage for what is likely to 'come next'.
    I have had a few Spaniels,and the odd Retriever ,that kinda 'Hovered' it's rear end on a stop (in anticipation) but they all stopped! and stayed there for the next command.
    With some of those (without a training programme like you guy's) they have tended to ''creep'' the more I tried to achieve a 'sit' ON STOP.
    Good account, Robt. - theoretically the snappy or crisp sit (which is most often imparted over here via the training magic of the e-collar) is necessary for precision in running blinds. The "sloppy sit" or drift or creep after the command's/whistle's been given/blown takes a dog further offline for the blind - thus taking away a good chance of advancing to the next series.

    So it could be that our dogs are trained to sit on a dime because if they stayed up on all four feet (for "stopping") the tendency likely would be putting another paw down and another paw down and maybe four or five yards' of paw down before they fully came to a stop. Maybe Mr. Voigt or someone else here with far more experience and insight into retriever field trials can argue whether or not the "stop" and turn awaiting the cast is as practical - or as pretty (in the judges' eyes) - as the snappy all but instantaneous sit.

    MG

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