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Thread: Stop whistle command US Style?

  1. #1
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Default Stop whistle command US Style?

    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Good account, Robt. - theoretically the snappy or crisp sit (which is most often imparted over here via the training magic of the e-collar) is necessary for precision in running blinds. The "sloppy sit" or drift or creep after the command's/whistle's been given/blown takes a dog further offline for the blind - thus taking away a good chance of advancing to the next series.

    So it could be that our dogs are trained to sit on a dime because if they stayed up on all four feet (for "stopping") the tendency likely would be putting another paw down and another paw down and maybe four or five yards' of paw down before they fully came to a stop. Maybe Mr. Voigt or someone else here with far more experience and insight into retriever field trials can argue whether or not the "stop" and turn awaiting the cast is as practical - or as pretty (in the judges' eyes) - as the snappy all but instantaneous sit.

    MG
    I thought it pertinent to start my own thread,rather than possibly confuse or de-rail the original one where my question arose.
    ...
    Here is my 'quandary'...Having a dog that has not been FF ,or CC, and NOT been trained in 'Positive only', or clicker
    A theoretical 'snappy/crisp' SIT to stop whistle is achieved
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fqrQ96Y3Q

    When the 'stop' whistle has been used in training to condition the dog to 'take a line that has been ,ie keep on truckin,or the stop' will tell you that you have gone off line'?..therefore 'your desire'(retrieve)is less forthcoming like we conditioned you to want?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jZ6MZcHp10

    Can you see my quandary?....Or ...Is it really necessary,to do 'all the drills' in a programme?...to achieve the retrieve/hunt game.
    .........
    I would welcome Mr Voigt's opinion on the 'stop command',or any other's?
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

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    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    ...
    Here is my 'quandary'...Having a dog that has not been FF ,or CC, and NOT been trained in 'Positive only', or clicker
    A theoretical 'snappy/crisp' SIT to stop whistle is achieved
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fqrQ96Y3Q
    Your question was; "why do we need the snappy sit?".

    He answered why. He didn't say that you can't get it, without an e-collar.

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    ...When the 'stop' whistle has been used in training to condition the dog to 'take a line that has been ,ie keep on truckin,or the stop' will tell you that you have gone off line'?..therefore 'your desire'(retrieve)is less forthcoming like we conditioned you to want?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jZ6MZcHp10

    Can you see my quandary?....Or ...Is it really necessary,to do 'all the drills' in a programme?...to achieve the retrieve/hunt game.
    .........
    I would welcome Mr Voigt's opinion on the 'stop command',or any other's?
    Blinds are about demonstrating control.
    Not just picking up the chickens.

    That was a failed blind, in any level of HT in the US.

  3. #3
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    "That was a failed blind, in any level of HT in the US."

    Why?
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

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    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    "That was a failed blind, in any level of HT in the US."

    Why?
    Because, the dog didn't run a blind.

    It quartered the wind, and followed it's nose. And the handler just let it.

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    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Because, the dog didn't run a blind.

    It quartered the wind, and followed it's nose. And the handler just let it.

    Polmaise,

    Please don't even spend your time responding to this sort of commentary.

    I have been judging lots of levels of retriever tests and now trials for a number of years. I think a statement like the above is out of context and really not a resonable comparison to make.

    One thing I was told when I had the incredible fortune to come to Ireland to handle some UK labs and also judge some "dummy tests" was this. As an American Field Trialer/hunt tester, expect the Brits to handle on their marks quicker than we would and expect the Brits to let their dogs hunt more on blinds than we would.

    Guess what - that's exactly what I found...and SO WHAT? I had the chance to judge UK dogs aside UK co-judges. In the end, we found that good dog work was good dog work. A good dog man will understand and appreciate good work, regardless of the venue, regardless of the game.

    You guys have beautiful dogs and beautiful grounds. Look at those labs on that second video. North American guys who think Brit labs are short, fat, squatty animals with fat blocky heads and no brains inside.....what do you think of Polmaise's labs?

    I would LOVE to own one of those dogs! They are athletic, beautiful, obedient, and calm yet responsive. Same with that spaniel.

    Polmaise, If you ever get the chance to come to the USA, please let me know. Seriously. I want to be sure that the RTF family finds a retriever event for you to attend.

    If you're a true outdoorsman, and a sportsman, you're likely to find that all dog games are fun. There is no right or wrong. They are just different.



    The above is something I found on youtube and was my very first find. It is but one example of some American FT blind work.

    Polmaise, your dogs are gorgeous and your training grounds are beautiful.

    Please don't let the comment about your lab "failing" an American HT blind. It was a cool video and they are nice dogs.

    Chris

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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    I found the spaniel just too fun to watch and what beautiful grounds, those flowers especially, gorgeous. I thought the dog was sent to quarter, stopped then sent on a blind? Seemed to work pretty well for what it was asked to do.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

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    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    I found the spaniel just too fun to watch and what beautiful grounds, those flowers especially, gorgeous. I thought the dog was sent to quarter, stopped then sent on a blind? Seemed to work pretty well for what it was asked to do.
    Agreee totally....except I was getting dizzy watching the happy tail!
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    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post

    Blinds are about demonstrating control.
    Not just picking up the chickens.

    That was a failed blind, in any level of HT in the US.
    I think your perspective is constrained by your hunt test rule book.

    That dog wasn’t quartering. It appeared to me to take a good line down a hill, through some cover & carried it out of the bottom & up a hill very nicely. If his pace looks casual compared to an American dog it's because this Lab has his nose turned on the whole way while the American dog will have his turned off until he’s handled right onto the bird. If you watch closely, this dog “makes” the bird about 22 seconds into the video from an impressive distance while downhill from the bird. The rest of the way he has a nose full & is just trying to pinpoint it in what appears to be gusty winds at the top of the hill. Every other gundog venue besides the American retriever games considers the strength of a dog’s nose paramount. Our game seems to consider a dogs nose to be an obstacle that needs to be overcome.

    While you are correct to state that this performance would not be acceptable in American tests, in my opinion, the way this dog faded & used his nose is the superior strategy to use on land. My reasoning is that if a bird falls that far away, he’s probably only crippled & moving as soon as he hits the ground. The American approach of lining the dog directly to the point of the fall has a 50-50 chance of taking the dog upwind of the bird where he can’t use his greatest asset. I've yet to shoot a bird that sent up an orange marker when he hit the ground to make sure I could cast the dog right onto him. As the bird dog trainers say "If you think you know where the birds are, why'd you bring the dog?"

    There’ve been a lot of times while hunting that I’ve decided “not” to try a blind because I didn’t have enough confidence where the bird was & didn’t want to risk lying to my dog & thus, un-training him for Hunt Tests.

    I believe the American preference for precise control on a blind evolves from our use of the dog primarily as a water retriever. For a swimming dog, fading w/ the wind isn’t as practical and we typically have a better idea of precisely where the bird fell so we can put the dog right onto the bird.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

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    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to say that anybody is better than anybody else, or hurl transatlantic insults.

    He wants to know why.
    I'm trying to explain why.

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    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I'm not trying to say that anybody is better than anybody else, or hurl transatlantic insults.

    He wants to know why.
    I'm trying to explain why.
    I saw that. I hope he ignores it and doesn't waste his time debating it.

    I thought it was cool. He never presented it as a hunt test blind, nor as a cold blind. He also never advised us as to what direction the wind is blowing.

    I think that the "explanation" made too many assumptions and was extreme.

    I've judged a lot of hunt tests in my days and I'd not state that if this were a hunt test blind of any venue, that it would or wouldn't "pass" based upon the video as presented.

    It is a cool lab doing cool work on cool grounds, fetching a canvas dummy.

    Chris

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