Stop whistle command US Style?

[Breck]

Yer daft, how in the hell ya gonna give a dog a freakin treat at 100 yards let alone 300.

[Chris Atkinson]

Wehl, I think the answer is well timed marker training. But I don't qualify to answer because I'm not a collar user and I think he was asking collar users what they would do to train a crisp sit without the use of a collar. Or maybe that was Blimp. Anyway, You can get a butt all the way to the ground, fast, crisp, facing you sit using markers and treats. Then progressing to markers and retrieves, progressing to whistle and retrieve, then whistle and cast. The lesson sticks and stands the test of time and birds and gun fire.

Jennifer,

I trained GMHR titled labs in the 90s via the "Amish" method and spent many years thinking the collar was an evil, un-necessary tool. I know all about a crisp, snappy sit without the use of an e-collar. As far as I know, yours truly was the first to type the term "Amish training" on the internet. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing it written before I wrote it on the old RTF format.

I used to think the Amish way was the best way.

I decided in 2006 to open my mind and read the same Lardy stuff, that I used to think was no epiphany. I used to think I did essentially the same stuff, only better.

What I found, when I opened my mind and got a new puppy, was a true epiphany. There was a better way. I had it right in front of my nose when the new REtriever Journal came out. I had it right in front of me on VHS tape with Mike's videos. I just didn't let myself see what I had. I wasn't ready yet.

My interpretation of what Pomaise wrote was that he truly wanted to know how the North American trainers get a snappy sit. I did my best to answer. If you don't like my answer, that's OK. I did not tell Polmaise that he must or must not use an e-collar.

I wish you the best in your training, the way that works best for you and your dogs. I was not in any way trying to influence you otherwise.

I was trying my darndest to communicate with Polmaise and address what he seemed to seek.

I took your post as stating that you "highly doubt" that Polmaise was asking for what I wrote.

Maybe I completely misunderstood.

Enjoy.

Chris

[Jennifer Henion]

It was no slight on you. Just remembering Blimp's recent thread on wondering how folks would do it without the collar and thinking Polmais was, too.

Also, I don't think my way is better. Love Lardy and have all of his materials and study them daily. I don't do amish or tennis shoe yet. Have no argument with using the collar for well timed punishment, just don't want to do compulsion training. And am intimidated by collar conditioning.

As for Breck's comment about treats at 100 yds. Training the whistle sit with markers and rewards starts close and is based on chaining. You train the chain of behaviors: whistle, sit, look for cast, follow cast, retrieve. Soon the whistle becomes the reward because it indicated the rest of the chain - the end of which is the retrieve and the happy owner. It does work at 100 and 300 yds. Even with an 11 month old pup.

Not trying to be a brat, Chris, just having some Friday night after working very hard, fun!

Thanks for providing this forum - it is a lot of fun!!!

[copterdoc]

Thanks for that 'copterdoc'
Have you ever had one of those that 'hover' their back end ? with this early process of pup's chest and rear end being pushed down?..If so 'How did you overcome it'?

The simplest answer, is that I establish a sit standard that I have the ability to enforce. And then, I maintain that standard, through consistent reinforcement.

Now, that's not to say that I don't pick my battles.
These dogs are not perfect, and we can't demand perfection in every little thing.

There are some "issues" with every dog, that I'm willing to live with.
As long as it doesn't interfere with the work I need from the dog, at that point in it's training.

[polmaise]

Each time I've gone to EU, I've found that if they cross pollenated with a bit more of the NA FT stuff in their game, they'd likely up their game and start setting some new standards.

Chris

Spot On Chris !,Which is why I am on this Forum, and I am sure the reason also that others from this side of the pond also.

[Howard N]

Spot On Chris !,Which is why I am on this Forum, and I am sure the reason also that others from this side of the pond also.

Ah,,, trying to get one up on the competition huh?

Me too, I'm here to learn how to use a clicker.

[gdgnyc]

Me too, I'm here to learn how to use a clicker.

I knew it!!!! A closet clicker!

[Chris Atkinson]

Spot On Chris !,Which is why I am on this Forum, and I am sure the reason also that others from this side of the pond also.

Polmaise,

Maybe my comprehension skills aren't that bad after all.

I have found that when one has experience as you obviously do, with obedience, training, trialing, handling, etc, the Lardy material is readily understood and adapted.

I'd suggest you not seek specific details on the forum, but rather arm yourself with these materials and read through "step by step" in detail. I'm confident you will pick some things up and may very well find that this "system" with all the detailed building blocks upon which a solid foundation is created, can build some nice handling dogs.

Chris

[Breck]

Robert
The one method I mentioned earlier, following dog out and using pinch correction, works like a charm. Have you tried it or something similar.
Although we use an ecollar using an ecollar correction on a dog who did not stop where you wanted or had a wide loopy sit that put him well to the side of desired line, would be lost on the dog.
The method I mentioned would simultaneously include "SIT" "Pinch" "Burn" followed by another "Sit" after releasing button then repeat say 2 - 3 times.
For you, doing the same simply using the pinch correction will probably result in a dog that quickly puts on the brakes when you blow the whistle.
This is how some do it.
For a younger dog who is just learning but not getting it we may clip a 100 foot length of rope to their collar and hold onto rope. This works too but be warned. If not careful your feet will get tangled in rope and rope burn hurts! Wear gloves.

[twall]

A crisp sit is taught in the kitchen or backyard and is a way of life. Once a dog learns there are situations where a crisp sit is not required obedience erodes. Training tools can be used to re-enforce training remotely.

Retrievers Online may be of interest. Dennis Voigt and those he gets to write artivles do an excellent job.

All US retriever HT/FT training goes back to the foundation Rex Carr developed. While the e collar is used extensively it is just a tool. It doesn't teach anything, the trainer does that.

Tom