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Thread: Lab behaves with collar, but resists without

  1. #11
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    I think they all become collar-wise. They know they've got that thing on their necks, and they sense the rules are differently enforced in its presence. What we control is the level to which they are sensitized to that fact. And you don't hear this often, but being collar-wise isn't necessarily bad. WHAT??? Okay, here's what I mean by all that.

    Dogs are situational learners. That's painting with a broad brush. But it's accurate, and applies many ways to dog training. Just as they are sensitive to triggers in their environment that tells them they're at a trial today, (or test, or hunting, etc), they also are aware of the tools we use in training. What's the difference between a dog that is fully aware of the heeling stick a trainer is holding, and one that is stick-shy? Inappropriate, or inconsistent standards of application, don't you think?

    As to the e-collar, gdgnyc made an important point about not giving commands when you aren't in a position to enforce them. If you have e-collar conditioned your dog, and you're going training, the collar should be on the dog. If you're going out in the yard, and plan to let your dog run free in a fenced yard, it's optional because enforcing commands in that close environment is easy, and can be done without the collar. We have other tools. Besides, your dog should be well trained enough that correcting him all the time should not be a consideration. When we discuss these topics it's easy to get the impression that they never obey unless we're nailing them with some forcing implement.

    When "collar-wise" exists in a destructive form the dog behaves compeletly different...is obedient with, and totally disobedient without the collar. That happened because someone put the dog in positions where commands were given; sometimes with the collar to enforce them, and sometimes without it. What's the trigger? The presence of the collar, or the absence of it.

    I used to train with a nice guy who just could not stay off the button. If he blew a sit whistle, there was a nick with it. His dogs would get 'buggy' over time. His first reaction was to put the transmitter in his back pocket. That didn't work, of course. The first mistake his dog made and he played Quick-draw McGraw with that transmitter! Then he decided to run his dog without a collar on as his last ditch effort at self control. What do you suppose was the result of that?

    Evan
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  2. #12
    Senior Member J_Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think they all become collar-wise. They know they've got that thing on their necks, and they sense the rules are differently enforced in its presence. What we control is the level to which they are sensitized to that fact. And you don't hear this often, but being collar-wise isn't necessarily bad. WHAT??? Okay, here's what I mean by all that.

    Dogs are situational learners. That's painting with a broad brush. But it's accurate, and applies many ways to dog training. Just as they are sensitive to triggers in their environment that tells them they're at a trial today, (or test, or hunting, etc), they also are aware of the tools we use in training. What's the difference between a dog that is fully aware of the heeling stick a trainer is holding, and one that is stick-shy? Inappropriate, or inconsistent standards of application, don't you think?

    As to the e-collar, gdgnyc made an important point about not giving commands when you aren't in a position to enforce them. If you have e-collar conditioned your dog, and you're going training, the collar should be on the dog. If you're going out in the yard, and plan to let your dog run free in a fenced yard, it's optional because enforcing commands in that close environment is easy, and can be done without the collar. We have other tools. Besides, your dog should be well trained enough that correcting him all the time should not be a consideration. When we discuss these topics it's easy to get the impression that they never obey unless we're nailing them with some forcing implement.

    When "collar-wise" exists in a destructive form the dog behaves compeletly different...is obedient with, and totally disobedient without the collar. That happened because someone put the dog in positions where commands were given; sometimes with the collar to enforce them, and sometimes without it. What's the trigger? The presence of the collar, or the absence of it.

    I used to train with a nice guy who just could not stay off the button. If he blew a sit whistle, there was a nick with it. His dogs would get 'buggy' over time. His first reaction was to put the transmitter in his back pocket. That didn't work, of course. The first mistake his dog made and he played Quick-draw McGraw with that transmitter! Then he decided to run his dog without a collar on as his last ditch effort at self control. What do you suppose was the result of that?

    Evan
    So, after reading all of this, I'm assuming that to use an e-collar effectively, and prevent a destructive "collar-wise" attitude, a trainer needs to use multiple methods of correction WHILE the collar is being worn by the dog... Basically so the dog links correction to the handler and not just the collar. Is this correct?

  3. #13
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    jchristi. I agree with much that is said. I like Evans point about most...or maybe all dogs get collar shy or smart to one degree or another and I to feel this is not a bad thing.
    I see a few things that you might consider in your training quest.
    1. Your dog is 9 months old, that young deliquent.....
    2. I like independant nature and that will pay big time if you ever hunt the dog.
    3. Picking up a stick? Why? Never use sticks to play games unless you want your dog retrieveing stick when you hunt. I use balls, bumpers, training bucks and game for retrieves. These can be controled and your dog is not in charge of when we are playing a game.
    4. Back to the check cord and on to the e-collar when "Here" is established and solid......every time.....always....without fail...
    5. Effort in training is waht makes a trained dog better than the others. Put in the effort, everyday, all the time and with every event. It will pay off.

    Enjoy the journey. Duckdon

  4. #14
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Brown View Post
    So, after reading all of this, I'm assuming that to use an e-collar effectively, and prevent a destructive "collar-wise" attitude, a trainer needs to use multiple methods of correction WHILE the collar is being worn by the dog... Basically so the dog links correction to the handler and not just the collar. Is this correct?
    The two keys, are consistency, and timing.

    Never repeat a command, without also enforcing it.
    Never enforce a command, that the dog made no effort to comply with.

    When you repeat commands without enforcement, the dog does not become conditioned to respond to the command.
    When you repeat the command with enforcement, the dog becomes conditioned to perform as trained, the FIRST time it hears the command.


    If the dog makes no effort to comply with a given command, adding pressure will probably not help. The dog needs further education, not pressure.
    If it knew what it was supposed to do, it would have given you an indication.

    Now, if the dog shows a POOR effort to comply, that's the time to respond with enforcement.
    It showed you that it knew what it was supposed to do, so it will probably understand the correction for not trying hard enough, and the next time the command is given, should demonstrate an improved response.

    Provided that the dog has been conditioned to understand the correction.

  5. #15
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Brown View Post
    So, after reading all of this, I'm assuming that to use an e-collar effectively, and prevent a destructive "collar-wise" attitude, a trainer needs to use multiple methods of correction WHILE the collar is being worn by the dog... Basically so the dog links correction to the handler and not just the collar. Is this correct?
    I don't know what the current opinion is but I feel that it is not a bad thing if the dog believes it can be corrected no matter what it is/is not wearing.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  6. #16
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    Thanks for the comments everyone. My take away is that (1) I need to be able to enforce every command; (2) Back to basics on obedience training; (3) give her more exercise, so she isn't frantic out of the kennel; and (4) (as it always is) more patience for me.

    Jchristi.

  7. #17
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchristi View Post
    Thanks for the comments everyone. My take away is that (1) I need to be able to enforce every command; (2) Back to basics on obedience training; (3) give her more exercise, so she isn't frantic out of the kennel; and (4) (as it always is) more patience for me.

    Jchristi.
    You learn quickly and that's good. You will be successful.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  8. #18
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Dogs learn very quickly when the standards change.

    /Paul
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  9. #19
    Senior Member J_Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    The two keys, are consistency, and timing.

    Never repeat a command, without also enforcing it.
    Never enforce a command, that the dog made no effort to comply with.

    When you repeat commands without enforcement, the dog does not become conditioned to respond to the command.
    When you repeat the command with enforcement, the dog becomes conditioned to perform as trained, the FIRST time it hears the command.


    If the dog makes no effort to comply with a given command, adding pressure will probably not help. The dog needs further education, not pressure.
    If it knew what it was supposed to do, it would have given you an indication.

    Now, if the dog shows a POOR effort to comply, that's the time to respond with enforcement.
    It showed you that it knew what it was supposed to do, so it will probably understand the correction for not trying hard enough, and the next time the command is given, should demonstrate an improved response.

    Provided that the dog has been conditioned to understand the correction.
    Great stuff right there. Thanks! I think I should print this.... lol

  10. #20
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    J Brown getting dog advice over the internet is iffy at best; for example
    In the 2 sentences you highlighted in copterdocs post I would take issue with the 2nd which says "Never enforce a command, that the dog made no effort to comply with"
    First I hate the use of words that are absolute such as "NEVER" Second I believe that a lack of effort to comply is a time to consider using correction. This difference could be due to the fact that I dont consider it a "command" until it has been taught and understood by the dog. As such it needs to be complied with or at least an attempt made at compliance.
    The possibility that Copterdoc and I have different interpretations further validates my belief that you are far better off to get with a knowledgeable experienced mentor or training group to guide you in your training as opposed to relying on the internet or DVDs
    Good Luck & Enjoy

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