Lab behaves with collar, but resists without

[J_Brown]

J Brown getting dog advice over the internet is iffy at best; for example
In the 2 sentences you highlighted in copterdocs post I would take issue with the 2nd which says "Never enforce a command, that the dog made no effort to comply with"
First I hate the use of words that are absolute such as "NEVER" Second I believe that a lack of effort to comply is a time to consider using correction. This difference could be due to the fact that I dont consider it a "command" until it has been taught and understood by the dog. As such it needs to be complied with or at least an attempt made at compliance.
The possibility that Copterdoc and I have different interpretations further validates my belief that you are far better off to get with a knowledgeable experienced mentor or training group to guide you in your training as opposed to relying on the internet or DVDs
Good Luck & Enjoy

Interpretations... precisely. See, the way I interpreted his post was exactly as you described it. So basically, never enforce a projection that the dog doesn't understand as being a command. If it doesn't understand it's being given a command, more work needs to be done... more work teaching.

At least, I think this is what he (and you) were trying to say.

Thank you for your advice. What you said makes a lot of sense. And I really will try to learn from actual in-the-field trainers along with the book/internet/DVD information.

[copterdoc]

Second I believe that a lack of effort to comply is a time to consider using correction. This difference could be due to the fact that I dont consider it a "command" until it has been taught and understood by the dog. As such it needs to be complied with or at least an attempt made at compliance.

I agree that lack of effort does usually warrant correction. The distinction that I am trying to point out, is that an outright refusal, or complete disregard of a given command, is often not due to lack of effort.

And in most cases, applied pressure is a bad idea.
The safe path, is to not correct unless the dog gives you some indication that it understood what was expected of it.

Poor effort is rather easy to spot.
If you are consistent in correcting poor effort, your corrections will be far more effective, and less frequent.

But, the dog HAS TO show you an indication that it knew what "right" was, and for whatever reason did not demonstrate enough effort to comply.

[achiro]

I agree that lack of effort does usually warrant correction. The distinction that I am trying to point out, is that an outright refusal, or complete disregard of a given command, is often not due to lack of effort.

And in most cases, applied pressure is a bad idea.
The safe path, is to not correct unless the dog gives you some indication that it understood what was expected of it.

Poor effort is rather easy to spot.
If you are consistent in correcting poor effort, your corrections will be far more effective, and less frequent.

But, the dog HAS TO show you an indication that it knew what "right" was, and for whatever reason did not demonstrate enough effort to comply.

I guess I understand what you are trying to say but in real life you better know what you've trained the dog to do and whether or not it knows the command from previous steps up the ladder of training. So I sure don't wait on a dog to "show an indication that it knew what right was" if I already know it knows, unless completely ignoring and blowing one off is what you mean by "an indication".

[copterdoc]

I guess I understand what you are trying to say but in real life you better know what you've trained the dog to do and whether or not it knows the command from previous steps up the ladder of training. So I sure don't wait on a dog to "show an indication that it knew what right was" if I already know it knows, unless completely ignoring and blowing one off is what you mean by "an indication".

I can't tell anybody how to read a dog.
But, I can tell them what they need to look for.

Just because the dog didn't do what you told it to, doesn't mean that it wasn't trying.
A half-assed response, is almost always a case of not trying.

So, if you read it, that's when you need to correct it.
But, make sure that you read it first.

When the dog makes no attempt to obey a command, you don't know whether or not pushing the button is going to result in the association that you intend for the dog to make. It might be hearing you, but not hearing you. If that makes any sense.

[BuddyJ]

Don't know what your training procedure is but most dogs that have been through force fetch, obedience cc and the walking force fetch do come when called and in a hurry. Do you think you may have skipped something in your training?

[Swack]

I agree with everyone in terms of not giving a command you can't enforce, but also have a question for you. What type of exercise schedule is your pup on? I'm not trying to make excuses for the pup at all, but am wondering if her experience is that she gets minimal time out of the kennel (except for training) to burn off some energy and just be a dog. This may be too touchy feely for some, but I think there's a lot of merit in taking a dog for long walks where they are safe off lead and letting them run. They learn to check back in to see that you are in range and do need to come when called, but for the most part it is "their" walk. They also come to learn that you are pretty great to be around and not all about obedience. Field dogs need a lot of physical exercise on top of mental stimulation.

I walk my dog w/out an e-collar, but he knows that I still expect him to do what he's told when necessary-heeling when we see another dog, coon, deer, etc, I have his respect on those things and he's compliant, so with those and other exceptions it's "his" walk and I don't nag him. Just wondering if your dog needs a bit more room to be a dog outside the kennel.

M

Miriam,

What kind of crack-pot would take a dog(s) on a walk in the field without an ecollar! Well . . . maybe a crack-pot like ME! I like the way you think M! I don't use an ecollar and often have 4 Labs on a hike loose without even a regular collar. I'm a forester and regularly take my dogs to the woods with me. That group includes a 7 month old bitch puppy. No control problems. I guess I don't rely of electrons to make a point. Some of my verbal commands might not be family friendly . . . some might consider them SHOCKING! But my dogs understand the meaning of the commands and the meaning of tone of voice. A dog must be able to be a dog, especially a youngster who needs to explore the world. I wonder if too many folks get so caught up in training and following the "program" that they don't allow their dog to be a dog and also under their control, but in a less regimented way.

A regular member recently mentioned they had upgraded to a different ecollar system so they could have more than 4 Labs out together for a hike. I had to wonder why he felt the need for electronics just to take his dogs on a hike!?! Ecollars can be a tool and they can be a crutch. Either way, they aren't a substitute for training.

Swack

[big gunner]

Just out of curiosity what would you have done had you not had a collar??? I am a pre collar Guy. I do use a collar but only in the field and only as a training tool. A correction is given only for direct disobedience. Failure to COME,GO,OR SIT. I still do competitive obedience and field trials. Consider additional alternatives other than the collar. I still run out no matter how far and correct a dog ( a lot harder ant 64 than when I was in my 30's ) Remember SIT means SIT, and COME means COME no matter what. Maybe a long line is in order. You have a lot of advice from good people here. Choose the information that you feel comfortable with. You can pm me if you need to.