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Thread: URGENT: AVMA to vote 'AGAINST' using Homeopathic Therapy in treating pets, JAN. 5

  1. #51
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Tammy,

    Note that the table you copied states "Fat % of calories", etc. Not the same as fat % listed on the bag, which I believe is % by weight. Fat has 9 calories per gram. Protein and Carbs have 4 calories per gram. You've gotta do some math to get the answer.

    I only know of one commercial dog food that list the % of calories from protein, fat, & carbs: Orijen. Their Adult Dog Formula is 38% from protein, 22% from fruits and vegetables (carbs), and 40% from fat. Note that the numbers added together equals 100%. Your PPP figures don't add to 100%. Where did you get the % Carbs?

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

  2. #52
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Ok, Swack, gotcha. You are right % of calories......recalculation.

    Here's how I figured carbs. 100-protein-fat-moisture-fiber=carbs

    Purina 30/20: 100-30-20-12-3=35

    Now to figure % of calories. The University of California at Davis School of Veterinary Medicine recommends estimating 3.5 kcal per gram of protein and carbohydrates, and 8.5 kcal per gram of fat.

    The kilocalories from protein are 105 kcal per 100 grams (30 x 3.5). The kilocalories from carbohydrates are 122.5 kcal per 100 grams (35 x 3.5). The kilocalories from fat are 170 kcal per 100 grams (20 x 8.5). The total estimated calories from 100 grams of this food are 425 kcal per 100 grams.

    So the new % of calories calculation for Purina Pro Plan 30/20 is 24% Protein / 40% fat / 29% carbs using the conservative UofCal numbers and 28% protein / 42% fat / 32% carbs using your numbers.

    Activity Protein % of Calories Fat % of Calories Carbohydrate % of Calories
    Sprint 25 30 45
    Intermediate >=25 35-65 10-40
    Endurance 35 >55 10-20
    Proplan 28 42 32

    By adding these numbers to Purina's chart, it appears that Proplan 30/20 is inline with an "Intermediate" activity chart, but again it really depends on how often your dog works out and for how long....very much subjective.

    Purina states, "Intermediate athletes can be subdivided into two categories those that exercise at a low-moderate frequency and duration and those that exercise at a higher duration and frequency. There may be short bursts of intense activity, like running up a hillor sprinting after a bird in the case of a hunt-ing dog or completing an agility course in the case of agility dogs, but the majority of intermediate canine athletes exercise at an intensity level well below 75% VO2 max. Therefore, the exercise of these intermediate athletes more closely resembles endurance exercise rather than sprint exercise."

  3. #53
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Tammy,

    Shouldn't the percentages of calories from the three sources (protein, fat, & carbs) always equal 100? I've got an idea how you may be able to calculate the contribution from carbs. Since you know the percentage by weight of Protein and Fat, as well as the total calories, why not determine the number of calories that protein and fat contribute, subtract that from the total and the remainder would be the percentage from carbs! After all, those are the only three sources of calories.

    Not sure where UC Davis get their figures for calories per gram of protein and fat. Perhaps that is how many calories a dog can utilize, but it is a well known fact that Protein and Carbs yield 4 kcal/gram and Fat yields 9 kcal/gram, so those are the figures I'll use.

    I get 120 calories from Protein {(30 g. protein/100 g. food) x 4 kcal/g. = 120 kcal}, 180 calories from Fat {(20 g. fat/ 100 g. food) x 9 kcal/g. = 180 kcal.}. That leaves 125 kcal contributed by carbs {425 - (120 + 180) = 125}.

    The percent of caloric contribution for PPP performance 30/20 would be: Protein: 28.20%, Fat: 42.35%, and Carbs: 29.45%.

    To those who have followed this deviation into the minutia of canine nutrition, this may seem like trivia or a very detailed analysis of dog food, depending on your perspective. Either way, you should be aware that this is a very simplistic way to analyize nutrition. When you lump the nutritional contribution of a dog food's ingredients into Protein, Fat, and Carbs, that can lead you to think that "All Proteins" or "All Fats" are equal. They are not! The second ingredient on PPP performance is "Corn Gluten Meal. Gluten is the protein in corn. It is not a "complete" protein, because it doesn't contain all of the amino acids a dog needs. Likewise, all fats are not equal in nutritional value. PPP performance's primary fat source is "Animal Fat" which could be from any animal source and is often considered a low quality fat source.

    We have discussed the contribution of carbs in a canine (and human) diet. Dogs have no requirement for carbs (nor do humans). There are essential Amino Acids and essential Fatty Acids which dogs (and humans) must get from their diet. There is no such thing as an essential Carbohydrate! Dogs (and humans) can synthesize all of the glycogen they need from fat or protein.

    Nutrition is a complex subject. Looking at the Guaranteed Analysis only gives you a vague idea about the usefulness of a dog food for your application. The ingredient list gives you a better idea where the nutrition comes from. To a degree, quality is a subjective thing. As they say, "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder."

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

  4. #54
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Swack, Atwater factors are averages. The ones Tammy cites are for dog kibble. However, if you round them you get the 4 kcal per g of protein and carbs and 9 kcal per g of fat that you used. I think you are using the human standard.
    Renee P

  5. #55
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Swack,

    After a little more research, I think my Carb calculation is right.

    The FDA defines how to calculate carbohydrate: Subtract the weight of crude protein, total fat, moisture, and ash (or fiber which is indigestible carbs) from the total weight ("wet weight") of the sample of food.

    Calculate Carbohydrate Percentage On An "As Fed" Basis
    Formula 1: 100% - protein% - fat% - moisture% - ash% = Carbohydrate
    Using the Guaranteed analysis example above:
    Carbohydrate = 100% - 30% protein -20% Fat -12% Water 3% ash = 35% carbohydrate.

    This is how I figured Purina Pro Plan 30/20 as 35% carbohydrate by weight.

    Dr. Robert Gillett, DVM, with Sports Medicine Veterinary Services, also uses the energy yields of 3.5 for protein / carbs, and 8.5 for fat.

    You are absolutely dead on when you state,
    "All Proteins" or "All Fats" are equal. They are not! The second ingredient on PPP performance is "Corn Gluten Meal. Gluten is the protein in corn. It is not a "complete" protein, because it doesn't contain all of the amino acids a dog needs. Likewise, all fats are not equal in nutritional value. PPP performance's primary fat source is "Animal Fat" which could be from any animal source and is often considered a low quality fat source.
    Dr. Gillett goes on to state that proteins from animal sources is much better than plant based sources.
    "
    Protein is both an energy source an a source of amino acids. High-quality animal source proteins provide superior digestibility, amino acid balances, and palatability."

    Swack mentions PPP contains primarily omega-6 fatty acids from animal fats alone resulting in a highly unbalanced ratio dominated by omega-6 fatty acids. Adding fish oil can provide your pet with a direct source of omega-3 fatty acids. It's as easy as adding a few sardines a day to their diet.


    Yes, canine nutrition is complicated, but with just a little effort and education you can supplement a commercial diet with a few extra animal proteins, Omega 3 fats, and vitamins and minerals to enhance performance. Your dogs will be glad you did!

  6. #56
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    TBell,

    We are getting into the weeds, but I don't mind. That's where the birds are! I won't argue with the % carbs by weight, but the % of calories contributed by carbs is different! And the percentages of calories contributed by protein, fat, and carbs must equal 100% of the calories in the food.

    I'd also like to state that not all fiber is indigestible. Some fiber is digestible and is a carb.

    I believe there is a difference between calorie content and metabolizable calories. As I understand it calorie content is chemistry. 1 cal is the amount of heat needed to raise the temp of 1 cc of water one degree C. By that definition protein and carbs have 4/g and fat has 9/g when completely combusted. When you're talking the amount of energy that a dog can metabolize, that is biology and may acount for inefficencies of the metabolic processes. Can't claim to be well versed in that area. I do see that dog foods list energy content as Metabolizable Energy (ME) in kcals, so your figures likely account for a dog's metabolic ineffeciencies.

    As to the subject of suppliments, I'd prefer to feed a high quality food that provides all of the nutrition my dogs need. However, I won't argue that using whole fresh foods as a suppliment to commercial dog food can help to provide higher quality nutrition for your dog.

    You mention omega 6's (I don't think I did). PPP perfomance's guaranteed analysis claims it contains .12% of DHA and .12% EPA (both are long chain omega 3 fatty acids). Orijen Adult's GA claims it contains .60% DHA and .30% EPA. That's 5 times more DHA and 2.5 times more EPA. Their 6 fish formula is even higher in omega 3 FA's (1.0% DHA and .6% EPA). Not only is this due to a higher quality fat source, but also due to the inclusion of fresh fish and whole eggs in their formula.

    I don't know that RTF is used to in-depth analysis of this nature. Maybe I should say that my dog has a shiney coat and poops firm turds and leave it at that!?! If not, we might become out-casts! (Or is it too late already!)

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

  7. #57
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swack View Post
    TBell,

    We are getting into the weeds, but I don't mind. That's where the birds are! I won't argue with the % carbs by weight, but the % of calories contributed by carbs is different! And the percentages of calories contributed by protein, fat, and carbs must equal 100% of the calories in the food.

    I'd also like to state that not all fiber is indigestible. Some fiber is digestible and is a carb.
    OK, again the % of calorie thing! I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swack View Post
    I believe there is a difference between calorie content and metabolizable calories. As I understand it calorie content is chemistry. 1 cal is the amount of heat needed to raise the temp of 1 cc of water one degree C. By that definition protein and carbs have 4/g and fat has 9/g when completely combusted. When you're talking the amount of energy that a dog can metabolize, that is biology and may acount for inefficencies of the metabolic processes. Can't claim to be well versed in that area. I do see that dog foods list energy content as Metabolizable Energy (ME) in kcals, so your figures likely account for a dog's metabolic ineffeciencies.
    I believe that is the reason for the reduced numbers, the dog's metabolic inefficiencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swack View Post
    As to the subject of suppliments, I'd prefer to feed a high quality food that provides all of the nutrition my dogs need. However, I won't argue that using whole fresh foods as a suppliment to commercial dog food can help to provide higher quality nutrition for your dog.

    You mention omega 6's (I don't think I did). PPP perfomance's guaranteed analysis claims it contains .12% of DHA and .12% EPA (both are long chain omega 3 fatty acids). Orijen Adult's GA claims it contains .60% DHA and .30% EPA. That's 5 times more DHA and 2.5 times more EPA. Their 6 fish formula is even higher in omega 3 FA's (1.0% DHA and .6% EPA). Not only is this due to a higher quality fat source, but also due to the inclusion of fresh fish and whole eggs in their formula.
    I would also prefer to feed a higher quality food, but they are hard to find, expensive, and I have 7 dogs. Its simply easier for me to add some eggs, sardines, organ meats and maybe an occasional raw squirrel to their diet.

    I am not at all opposed to cooking meals for particular dogs that are sick and always use real food for my seniors. It makes a huge difference, I'm sure you know. I was convinced by it when my 15 year old dog with arthritis lived a wonderful long, pain-free life with real food and natural supplements and NO PRESCRIPTION PAIN MEDS. (Sorry I have no scientific studies to back that one up, all real foods, natural spices, vitamins and minerals. It would be hard to get a big name company to finance that study!)

    I have a great interest in using nutrition to boost the immune system in dogs due to my commitment in helping dogs with Pythiosis. I've recently read about 5 books on the subject and have written many notes on what I've learned. I'll be adding it all soon the website to help people with sick dogs.

    For the average dog, no supplements are needed over what they get from commercial diets. For dogs under the stress of competition, disease, or old age, I don't believe they get nearly enough nutrition from a commercial diet. Could this be the reason competitive dogs are getting so many injuries?

    Dr. Robert Gillett states
    Vitamins and minerals are also very important in the canine athlete. Some important vitamins are A, D, E, K, and the B-complex vitamins, especially thiamin, niacin, and cyanocobolamine (B1, B3, and B12). Vitamin A plays a role in ligament and tendon health. Vitamin D is important in maintaining the calcium and phosphorus balance. Vitamin E is a very important anti-oxidant. It acts to maintain cell membrane stability, which is very important in dogs that use their olfactory senses, i.e. pointing breeds, detector dogs, and search and rescue dogs. Vitamin K is important to maintain proper blood conditions in the canine athlete. Thiamin helps to minimize the effects of stress related to competition and performance. Niacin aids in carbohydrate metabolism, and is required for red blood cell production. Cyanocobolamine is essential for synthesis of protein and formation of red blood cells and hemoglobin. Most vitamin needs are met with a normal high quality diet, but in certain situations supplementation can be beneficial to performance.
    And for your last comment,

    Quote Originally Posted by Swack View Post
    I don't know that RTF is used to in-depth analysis of this nature. Maybe I should say that my dog has a shiney coat and poops firm turds and leave it at that!?! If not, we might become out-casts! (Or is it too late already!)

    Swack
    HAHAHAHAHA probably too late!!

    Tammy
    Last edited by TBell; 01-08-2013 at 07:42 AM. Reason: grammar

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    In case you have not heard, the Connecticut resolution did not pass!
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  9. #59
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Well I'll be

    Thanks for info

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