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Thread: URGENT: AVMA to vote 'AGAINST' using Homeopathic Therapy in treating pets, JAN. 5

  1. #41
    Senior Member J Connolly's Avatar
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    There is a financial interest here and that belongs to those that are charging for BS treatments that have no proven scientific effect. Show me one double blind study that shows a proven benefit to feeding raw diets, not just hear say. Name one nutrient that been discovered in raw diets that is not present in cooked diets. I would also mention that is not possible feed a complete diet containing all the nutrients dogs need daily without adding a supplement. Can you define "ancestral diet". Americans love to be sold "miracle cures". Here's to Lydia Pinkham!
    Jan and Mike Connolly
    www.docsgoldens.com

  2. #42
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Connolly View Post
    There is a financial interest here and that belongs to those that are charging for BS treatments that have no proven scientific effect. Show me one double blind study that shows a proven benefit to feeding raw diets, not just hear say. Name one nutrient that been discovered in raw diets that is not present in cooked diets. I would also mention that is not possible feed a complete diet containing all the nutrients dogs need daily without adding a supplement. Can you define "ancestral diet". Americans love to be sold "miracle cures". Here's to Lydia Pinkham!
    Why should you have to prove that actual food is better than a commercial diet? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't you have to prove that processed food is healthier than, or equivalent to, fresh food?
    Renee P

  3. #43
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Connolly View Post
    There is a financial interest here and that belongs to those that are charging for BS treatments that have no proven scientific effect. Show me one double blind study that shows a proven benefit to feeding raw diets, not just hear say. Name one nutrient that been discovered in raw diets that is not present in cooked diets. I would also mention that is not possible feed a complete diet containing all the nutrients dogs need daily without adding a supplement. Can you define "ancestral diet". Americans love to be sold "miracle cures". Here's to Lydia Pinkham!
    J Connolly,

    You state: Show me one double blind study. Who will fund the double blind study? Nobody with deep pockets has a finacial interest in proving that a raw ancestral diet is superior to a conventional grain-based dry kibbled diet. However, there are several companies with deep pockets who have a financial interest in marketing conventional grain-based dry kibbled diets. Does the lack of a double blind study mean that feeding a dog in a way that more closely resembles the diet a canine evolved eatting is quackery?

    I borrowed the following from Orijen Dog Food's website in an attempt to answer your question: Can you define "ancestral diet".

    "THE BIOLOGICALLY APPROPRIATE CONCEPT IS SIMPLE: MIRROR THE BALANCE AND VARIETY OF FOODS THAT DOGS AND CATS WOULD CONSUME IN THEIR NATURAL ENVIRONMENT AND FOR WHICH THEY ARE EVOLVED.
    Dogs and cats evolved as hunters — the structure of their teeth, jaws and digestive system scientifically classifies them as carnivores, adapted to a meat-based diet that’s rich in animal protein and fat.
    Yet witness the current trend of ‘holistic’ pet foods that are largely grain-based, contain little meat or protein, exceed 40% carbohydrates, and feature fashionable ingredients — more often for their consumer appeal than for any nutritional benefit to dogs or cats.
    BIOLOGICALLY APPROPRIATE ORIJEN IS UNIQUELY DIFFERENT FROM TODAY’S CONVENTIONAL DRY DOG AND CAT FOODS
    Protein-rich, carbohydrate-limited and grain-free, ORIJEN features the highest fresh meat inclusions of any dry dog or cat food, at the same time excluding many conventional pet food ingredients — such as inappropriate high-glycemic cereal grains and vegetable proteins that simply are not present in the natural diet.
    To mirror the natural diet, ORIJEN also features a diversity of meats including fresh, free-run chicken and turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh free-range red meats and fresh saltwater and freshwater fish — all in a Biologically Appropriate ratio of 80 percent meat, 20 percent fruits and vegetables, and zero grain (80.20.0).
    By mirroring the foods that dogs and cats evolved to eat, Biologically Appropriate ORIJEN nourishes as Mother Nature intended, resulting in the peak health and happiness of your cherished dog or cat, as well as your peace of mind."

    If you'd like to read more about Orijen's philosophy on a Biologically Appropriate Diet for Canines you can read their 20 page white paper at their website www.orijen.ca/orijen/orijen/. The link is at the bottom of their About Us page.

    I don't feed a raw diet due to the convenience of dry commercial dog food. However, I do feed my brood bitches and puppies Orijen, which I believe more closely mimics a canine appropriate diet than do most other commercial dry dog foods. You may feed your dogs as you wish.

    Swack

    Disclaimer: I have no connection to or financial interest in Orijen Dog Food or its parent company Champion Pet Foods.
    Jeff Swackhamer

  4. #44
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    Here is the FAQ and resource list used by AVMA to make their recommendation on raw food. The recommendation is not around the health of the raw diet but more surrounding the safety of raw food and how easily it could be to poison your dog (salmonella etc.). Pretty sensible IMO.

    https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FA...olicy-FAQ.aspx

    https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Re...pet-foods.aspx

    Swack,

    Off the original subject but there's a reason why dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Dogs eat exactly what humans eat, including grains. Dogs began to differentiate themselves by hanging around camps and eating the scraps. I would actually imagine there wouldn't have been much meat besides bones fed to dogs for a long time (including to my grandfather's dogs who ate scraps their whole lives). It was too valuable to humans and didn't go to waste. Sorry Swack, I know you're big on the grain free thing but it just doesn't hold water for me either historically, academically, or through common sense. It seems to be the fad diet of the moment. Just my opinion.
    Last edited by dpate; 01-05-2013 at 10:45 PM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpate View Post
    Swack,

    Off the original subject but there's a reason why dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Dogs eat exactly what humans eat, including grains. Dogs began to differentiate themselves by hanging around camps and eating the scraps. I would actually imagine there wouldn't have been much meat besides bones fed to dogs for a long time (including to my grandfather's dogs who ate scraps their whole lives). It was too valuable to humans and didn't go to waste. Sorry Swack, I know you're big on the grain free thing but it just doesn't hold water for me either historically, academically, or through common sense. It seems to be the fad diet of the moment. Just my opinion.
    dpate,

    I have no problem with you disagreeing. We're all entitled to our opinions. I understand what you are saying about the differences between dogs and wolves and how domesticated dogs became a different "breed" from wolves. Incidentally, a great book on the subject is Dogs, A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

    However, I do see some glaring deficiencies in your logic. You state: "Dogs eat exactly what humans eat, including grains." So, am I supposed to believe that the ancestors of our dogs sat by the trash-heap at the edge camp and only ate what their human companions threw away? They were 100% reliant on humans for their sustenance? My own dogs while in the woods with me supplement their diets with rodents, insects, deer droppings, grass and other plants, carrion, bones and who knows what else. Yet ancestral dogs ate "exactly what humans eat". I don't buy it.

    Humans have only been agrarian for the past 10,000 years. That's not long enough for our own anatomy and physiology to adapt to the dietary changes agriculture brought, nor has it been enough time for canine anatomy and physiology to change, even if they did eat "exactly what humans eat". 10,000 years is a blink of the eye in evolutionary time. The humans dogs evolved with were hunter gathers for hundreds of thousands of years. Those dogs helped to provide for their own sustenance in a natural canine way. The diet their bodies evolved being nourished by did not include appreciable cereal grains nor did their primal human companions diet. For you to say that: "the grain free thing . . . just doesn't hold water for me either historically, academically, or through common sense." defies logic IMHO.

    Swack
    Last edited by Swack; 01-06-2013 at 11:58 AM.
    Jeff Swackhamer

  6. #46
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    I think it really depends what sports your dog participates whether your dog benefits from grains (carbohydrates) or not.

    According to several studies I've read on feeding the canine athlete, dogs who participate in 'sprint' to 'intermediate' type of activities lasting from 30 seconds to several minutes can benefit from diets high in carbohydrates because glycogen and glucose are the predominant fuel for that activity.

    For the dog who works hours at a time, for example in hunting, higher fat intake is necessary to properly fuel the muscles. High carb diets fed to endurance dogs can cause watery stools and dehydration.

    Burning fat improves the efficiency of energy utilized in performance animals and reduces breathing effort during excercise. When fatty acids are burned as fuel, less carbon dioxide is produced as compared to carbohydrates. The reduced CO2 is believed to reduce breathing effort during strenuous exercise. This makes burning fat metabolically cooler than burning protein, and minimizing the increase in body temps is very beneficial for dogs working in endurance events especially in warmer environments.

    Therefore, any dogs participating in the following events should receive a high carb diet:
    Flyball
    Agility
    Lure Coursing

    And the dogs participating in these events would benefit from a low carb, high fat diet:
    Sled dog racing
    Pack Hound hunts
    Working livestock
    Field Trials
    Search and Rescue

  7. #47
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Tammy, I am curious why field trials would be included with the other low carb/high fat activities. Though they do it several times in a day, our dogs seem to me to be "sprinting" or exerting maximum effort for repeated brief runs. Does the fact of repetition include them with the ones like pack hunters or sled dogs? Not saying I know any better but just truly curious.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  8. #48
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Carol most nutritionist with in depth knowkedge of the requirements for various types of canine athletic activities consider retriever field trial events neither purely sprint nor endurance and therefore having nutritional requirements somewhat different from sled dogs. A recommended diet of 30% protein 20% fat was not a dietary balance dreamed up but rather one based on scientific studies of athletic dogs performing as competitive retrievers do.

  9. #49
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Well that explains why the Euk 30/20 has always done just fine for mine. I was just surprised to see the retrievers in the group with the sledders. I'm not one to choose a food per the latest trends. If it works I stick with it. But I always like to know the latest info, and to learn to discern between fad and fact. That seems to be getting harder to do every day.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  10. #50
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Carol,

    It would depend on what type of work out your dogs get daily and on the weekends.

    According to Robert Gillett DVM, Sports Medicine Veterinary Services, "Strength/power events are of short duration (< 2 minutes) and are performed at intensities that are maximal or supramaximal. Some events are intermediate, they are performed at varying intensities for a duration of 2-4 minutes. Endurance events usually last longer than four minutes and are performed at intensities < 90% of maximal aerobic power (VO2 max)."

    I know big tests at field trials can take 7-8 minutes on land and 15+ minutes on water. So that would explain why it would be considered endurance.

    Here is a link to his article http://www.sportsvet.com/Art3.html

    I obtained the work out intensities from Purina. They also publish the calorie requirements in the same report.

    Do your own research at
    http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/Resear...ol9-issue1.pdf

    Calorie requirements written by Nestle Purina in above article are as follows:


    Activity Protein % of Calories Fat % of Calories Carbohydrate % of Calories
    Sprint 25 30 45
    Intermediate >=25 35-65 10-40
    Endurance 35 >55 10-20

    FYI Purina Pro Plan 30/20 contains 30% Protein 20% Fat and 35% Carbs

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