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Thread: Not going to tax the middle class

  1. #21
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Yes, just as new as the gov. running healthcare. If you would take a look at the explosion in medicare and ESPECIALLY IN MEDICAID, which has unliminted care and pays NOTHING. Whether you will admit it or not, THE GOV. CAUSED THE PROBLEM and now you expect the gov. to fix it. Dentistry has had the least involvement with the gov. than any of the other healthcare professions AND HAS HAD THE LEAST INFLATION of all. Dentistry has almost no participation in medicare(limited oral surgery) and none in the rest. For years virtually no dentists would participate in madicaid. Healthcare, energy, banking, education, all segments of the economy each growing at a greater rate than GDP, and all highly regulated by the gov. I wonder why liberals ignore this?
    And has not really changed in it's method of care and delivery of care either. Dentestry has, and always will be a very primitive means of health care, simply by the limits of it's ability to do anything other than what it has done for a hundred years. Products ahve improved and the way they drill, clean and fill has of course improved. But it is still a filling or crown or bridge. It is not in the same league as medicine. No open heart,brain operations, MRI's, Trauma.

    Not putting down dentists, but you cannot compare it and related costs to medicine. Just can't do it.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    And has not really changed in it's method of care and delivery of care either. Dentestry has, and always will be a very primitive means of health care, simply by the limits of it's ability to do anything other than what it has done for a hundred years. Products ahve improved and the way they drill, clean and fill has of course improved. But it is still a filling or crown or bridge. It is not in the same league as medicine. No open heart,brain operations, MRI's, Trauma.

    Not putting down dentists, but you cannot compare it and related costs to medicine. Just can't do it.
    I certainly take no offense. But let me educate you on just a few advancements in dentistry. Ridge reconsruction, due to periodontal disease or some injury, implants that re too numeros to name, root canals using optics that can see into the canal to determine the shape and curvature. Mandibular resection to correct mandibular prognathisism, maxillary expansion, maxilofacial reconstruction to correct genetic anomolies. There are many practices where fillings, crowns and bridges are but a small part of their work.

    If you went to a dental equipment and supply house today, half of the equipment I bought 35 years ago would not even exist today or would be significantly improved, and the other half would be equipment that did not exist then. Materials, equipment have seenmajor advances and as a result procedures that were nonexistant 35 years ago, exist today. If you have not had a need for any of these advancements, then you should consider yourself lucky. Your description of dentistry as primitive reminds me of a patient who once came in and made the statement, "why should I get my teeth fixed, I will lose them someday." My response to him was "why have coronary bypass surgery, you are going to die someday."

    If dentistry is "primitive today", then I don't know what I was 35 years ago but it sure wasn't anything like a dentist today.

  3. #23
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Are you saying that it is a new problem?


    No Buzz, I did not say that.

    I asked "So, who and what are responsible for the current insane increase daily for health care???"

    Your chart ends a tad early.
    NOTHING has been done to curb the problem, it is exponentially spiralling out of control, not getting better.
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  4. #24
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    Golddogs, go back and take a look aat the graph that Buzz posted. Medicare and medicaid began in 1965, 43 years ago. Healthcare growth as a peercentage of GDP coincides almost exactly with the introduction of medicare and medicaid. Let Buzz take his graph back another 43 years ago and you will see nothing like the problem we have today. No matter how you want to spin it, before medicare and medicaid, healthcare was market based and after medicare and medicaid, healthcare has been gov. controlled. In 1965 dentistry wanted no part of medicare and the gov. really had no way to force it to do so. That was not the case with physicians. Hospital reles and regulations was a lever that essentially forced them to participate. In retrospect, I suspect that they wished they had said "hell no we won't go!" Had they done so, we would be better off today.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    I would like to hear more about the waste you see in SS every day.

    .
    I work next to the social security building in Burlington Vermont. I can look out of the kitchen window and look out upon the parking lot of the building.
    What I have seen and know.
    1- Every summer the parking lot get re-paved. Now one block to the east is the federal court house and across the street is the Vermont district court house and the department of employment and training (welfare office). These other Government buildings get repaved every five years or more and patched as needed. We do get frost damage and all. But Social Security gets repaved every summer.
    2- The roof is flat. My Boss remembers when they built the building in 65. Everyone comment at the time but it was a federal design. It is Vermont. We get snow. The flat roof gets re tarred and graveled every spring. The other aforementioned buildings I have never seen anyone on. I have had my view since 1982 and my Boss since 1943. Building management of this building alone is thousands and thousands of unneeded dollars. And it is just one of how many?
    3- Leonard Samuel Delmont, Actually a very nice guy. From Rockaway Park NYC. Came to Vermont sent by his Mother to live with relations so he would not get in trouble in the big city. He was a dish washer for us for quite a few years. Even then in his early 20's he was severely over weight. After a while, somehow. He was deemed eligible for ssi. He came in and gave his notice and was so happy. My boss was stunned. Levon, (that was the name he went by) called it his fat check. Said he would never have to work again. ssi gave him a check, and still does, for being fat. Well, not having to work anymore, the only exercise he ever got. He got so much huger. Then the government gave him one of those hover round chairs. He rolled over and showed us. He is so proud. Well not having to walk to the liqueur store!! It is a death sentence for sure. Last time he rolled over he was so big. I felt and feel so bad for him. You and I, Our own government agency is making it possible for this nice guy to kill himself. And we are paying for it.
    4- The Blind guy. One day a few years ago My Boss called me to the window saying check this out. A very well dressed middle age man had parked his car in the SS lot and was unfolding a fold up red tip blind person cane. He then put on dark glasses and walked into the building. About 20 minutes later we saw him walk out and get back in his car and drive away. So we asked Mary Ann, one of the girls in the office because we feed them lunch at least once a week and she said she could not comment on individual cases under possible reprimand or something. But we saw a blind guy drive to ssi and walk in!
    5 - Homeland Security. Here in humble Burlington. Terror threat zero. Federal court house or even two Senators offices in walking range and are they patrolling those? Nope. But they roll like Jack Bauer in the black SUV's if you dare use the empty lot we all pay for after hours or on the weekend.
    And this is just one observation of one building by one person.
    this ponzie scheme waists money like there is no tomorrow
    I could keep going on these personal observations but my glass is empty
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    I work next to the social security building in Burlington Vermont. I can look out of the kitchen window and look out upon the parking lot of the building.
    What I have seen and know.
    1- Every summer the parking lot get re-paved. Now one block to the east is the federal court house and across the street is the Vermont district court house and the department of employment and training (welfare office). These other Government buildings get repaved every five years or more and patched as needed. We do get frost damage and all. But Social Security gets repaved every summer.
    2- The roof is flat. My Boss remembers when they built the building in 65. Everyone comment at the time but it was a federal design. It is Vermont. We get snow. The flat roof gets re tarred and graveled every spring. The other aforementioned buildings I have never seen anyone on. I have had my view since 1982 and my Boss since 1943. Building management of this building alone is thousands and thousands of unneeded dollars. And it is just one of how many?
    3- Leonard Samuel Delmont, Actually a very nice guy. From Rockaway Park NYC. Came to Vermont sent by his Mother to live with relations so he would not get in trouble in the big city. He was a dish washer for us for quite a few years. Even then in his early 20's he was severely over weight. After a while, somehow. He was deemed eligible for ssi. He came in and gave his notice and was so happy. My boss was stunned. Levon, (that was the name he went by) called it his fat check. Said he would never have to work again. ssi gave him a check, and still does, for being fat. Well, not having to work anymore, the only exercise he ever got. He got so much huger. Then the government gave him one of those hover round chairs. He rolled over and showed us. He is so proud. Well not having to walk to the liqueur store!! It is a death sentence for sure. Last time he rolled over he was so big. I felt and feel so bad for him. You and I, Our own government agency is making it possible for this nice guy to kill himself. And we are paying for it.
    4- The Blind guy. One day a few years ago My Boss called me to the window saying check this out. A very well dressed middle age man had parked his car in the SS lot and was unfolding a fold up red tip blind person cane. He then put on dark glasses and walked into the building. About 20 minutes later we saw him walk out and get back in his car and drive away. So we asked Mary Ann, one of the girls in the office because we feed them lunch at least once a week and she said she could not comment on individual cases under possible reprimand or something. But we saw a blind guy drive to ssi and walk in!
    5 - Homeland Security. Here in humble Burlington. Terror threat zero. Federal court house or even two Senators offices in walking range and are they patrolling those? Nope. But they roll like Jack Bauer in the black SUV's if you dare use the empty lot we all pay for after hours or on the weekend.
    And this is just one observation of one building by one person.
    this ponzie scheme waists money like there is no tomorrow
    I could keep going on these personal observations but my glass is empty
    Some years back I knew a lady who got a check because she was overweight. Some years later I took some classes on dementias etc. in older people. I got a chance to ask one of the instructors about the overweight lady drawing SSI. He said yes, it was what some people were drawing SSI for. Another thing used to be that drug addiction was cause for an SSI check. I don't know if drug addiction is still cause for getting an SSI check or not.............it should not be !
    charly

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  7. #27
    Senior Member M&K's Retrievers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    I work next to the social security building in Burlington Vermont. I can look out of the kitchen window and look out upon the parking lot of the building.
    What I have seen and know.
    1- Every summer the parking lot get re-paved. Now one block to the east is the federal court house and across the street is the Vermont district court house and the department of employment and training (welfare office). These other Government buildings get repaved every five years or more and patched as needed. We do get frost damage and all. But Social Security gets repaved every summer.
    2- The roof is flat. My Boss remembers when they built the building in 65. Everyone comment at the time but it was a federal design. It is Vermont. We get snow. The flat roof gets re tarred and graveled every spring. The other aforementioned buildings I have never seen anyone on. I have had my view since 1982 and my Boss since 1943. Building management of this building alone is thousands and thousands of unneeded dollars. And it is just one of how many?
    3- Leonard Samuel Delmont, Actually a very nice guy. From Rockaway Park NYC. Came to Vermont sent by his Mother to live with relations so he would not get in trouble in the big city. He was a dish washer for us for quite a few years. Even then in his early 20's he was severely over weight. After a while, somehow. He was deemed eligible for ssi. He came in and gave his notice and was so happy. My boss was stunned. Levon, (that was the name he went by) called it his fat check. Said he would never have to work again. ssi gave him a check, and still does, for being fat. Well, not having to work anymore, the only exercise he ever got. He got so much huger. Then the government gave him one of those hover round chairs. He rolled over and showed us. He is so proud. Well not having to walk to the liqueur store!! It is a death sentence for sure. Last time he rolled over he was so big. I felt and feel so bad for him. You and I, Our own government agency is making it possible for this nice guy to kill himself. And we are paying for it.
    4- The Blind guy. One day a few years ago My Boss called me to the window saying check this out. A very well dressed middle age man had parked his car in the SS lot and was unfolding a fold up red tip blind person cane. He then put on dark glasses and walked into the building. About 20 minutes later we saw him walk out and get back in his car and drive away. So we asked Mary Ann, one of the girls in the office because we feed them lunch at least once a week and she said she could not comment on individual cases under possible reprimand or something. But we saw a blind guy drive to ssi and walk in!
    5 - Homeland Security. Here in humble Burlington. Terror threat zero. Federal court house or even two Senators offices in walking range and are they patrolling those? Nope. But they roll like Jack Bauer in the black SUV's if you dare use the empty lot we all pay for after hours or on the weekend.
    And this is just one observation of one building by one person.
    this ponzie scheme waists money like there is no tomorrow
    I could keep going on these personal observations but my glass is empty
    Ken, have your observations been Swooped, Swoped, Stooped (Bob?) whatever??
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Golddogs, go back and take a look aat the graph that Buzz posted. Medicare and medicaid began in 1965, 43 years ago. Healthcare growth as a peercentage of GDP coincides almost exactly with the introduction of medicare and medicaid. Let Buzz take his graph back another 43 years ago and you will see nothing like the problem we have today. No matter how you want to spin it, before medicare and medicaid, healthcare was market based and after medicare and medicaid, healthcare has been gov. controlled. In 1965 dentistry wanted no part of medicare and the gov. really had no way to force it to do so. That was not the case with physicians. Hospital reles and regulations was a lever that essentially forced them to participate. In retrospect, I suspect that they wished they had said "hell no we won't go!" Had they done so, we would be better off today.
    No spin intended at all. And I agree, and said as much regarding the way we fix teeth. But the cost of doing so is no where near the costs of equipment or employees or costs to run clinics and hospitals and malpractice insurance to cover teh blood sucking lawyers and lawsuits, nor are as many patients needing proceedures costing tens of thousands of dollars. Dentisry is affordable because it is, for the most part, quite simple in it's application.

    I do not include what the reconstructive and oral surgeons do in that opiniion. I look at the cost of a filling or bridge from 15 years ago, and it is still a bargain and with advances in materials, not much more expensive( Unles you go for the gold grill work ) and acording to my Dentist, who I absolutely think is the best , much longer lasting. I am not trying to argue that health costs are not out of control, but the 2 are hard for me to compare. Just the cost of equipment and ways of delivery of care skews the comparison. I also think the industry has done a beter job controling costs itself ( dentestry ). And in dating myself, while medical insurance has been common for ever ( I can only go 50 years back ) Dental insurance has become more common in only the past few decades. So mabe that is a factor in cost control ? Could the insurance companies played a big role in the ever escalting costs?



    And for what it's worth, I miss the old spit sinks.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    No spin intended at all. And I agree, and said as much regarding the way we fix teeth. But the cost of doing so is no where near the costs of equipment or employees or costs to run clinics and hospitals and malpractice insurance to cover teh blood sucking lawyers and lawsuits, nor are as many patients needing proceedures costing tens of thousands of dollars. Dentisry is affordable because it is, for the most part, quite simple in it's application.

    I do not include what the reconstructive and oral surgeons do in that opiniion. I look at the cost of a filling or bridge from 15 years ago, and it is still a bargain and with advances in materials, not much more expensive( Unles you go for the gold grill work ) and acording to my Dentist, who I absolutely think is the best , much longer lasting. I am not trying to argue that health costs are not out of control, but the 2 are hard for me to compare. Just the cost of equipment and ways of delivery of care skews the comparison. I also think the industry has done a beter job controling costs itself ( dentestry ). And in dating myself, while medical insurance has been common for ever ( I can only go 50 years back ) Dental insurance has become more common in only the past few decades. So mabe that is a factor in cost control ? Could the insurance companies played a big role in the ever escalting costs?



    And for what it's worth, I miss the old spit sinks.
    As I said, I took no offense. I just wanted to correct your impresson that that had been little change in dentistry as opposed to medical. The fact is that many of the advancements in medical have been incoroported into dentistry. As to oral surgery, you do see the advancements but I assure you there have also been in advancements not only in other areas I cited but also in fillings, crowns and bridges. Advancements in efficiency, materials and preparation of teeth. These are things you probably can't see.

    As to insurance companies, my experience was that I did not allow them to influence my practice to any extent. Dentist as a whole are very independent and value that independence and maybe that is the reason for the way that the profession has been so stable. Yes the insurance companies have tried to exert more control but overall they have been unsuccessful. As to malpractics, I suspect that premiums have gone up percentagewise as much as physicians as a whole.

    I refer you to Buzz'z chart showing the increase in the cost of healthcare as a % of GDP, It corresponds almost EXACTLY with the creation of medicare and medicaid. Something those in favor of nationalizing healthcare conviently overlook.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jason Glavich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Fixed Income - we have been in a ZIRP environment for so long that that well has dried up. High rate bonds have been called or matured & CD's that pay anything are just not there. So right now the stool has 3 legs.

    .
    Milking stools are pretty stable with 3 legs...j/k
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