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The Derby Stake

29K views 112 replies 55 participants last post by  Breck 
#1 ·
Looked at the AKC FT rule book and found little description of the derby or any other stake. Not sure if I was looking at an outdated copy or not. It was a direct link from the AKC web site.

Also did an RTF search that brought up 20 pages worth of threads and none addressed this question.

What is the typical make-up of a derby stake? Won't be able to attend one until the first weekend of Feb., but curious to compare my girl's training level with that required of the Derby.

Typically, how many series are there? 2? 4? And what's the progression of series? Land singles, Land multiples, water singles, water multiples?

And how many multiples? Doubles only or are there triples?

Thanks,
Jen
 
#33 ·
I think everything has been mentioned that is in a derby. I would also add technical water marks with multiple in and outs! Last year i saw a long single for the 4th series through a pond at about 400 yards with the mark at the top of a hill.
 
#35 ·
The very first Derby I ever ran was at the San Jose club umteen years ago. Paul Corona and Les Lowenthal were the judges--told you it was a long time ago. In the last series, they threw a delayed triple! Scared the dickens out of me, but we did it and got 2nd. My girl was better trained than I was.
Suzanne Burr
 
#38 ·
The first Derby I ever ran about a gazillion years ago, had a delayed triple as the last series. The judges were Les Lowenthal and Paul Corona. The only reason I remember them is it was one heck of test and Berry and I got 2nd! She was definitely better trained than I was.
Suzanne B
 
#40 ·
If the goal is to run a derby then enter and learn. If the goal is to complete a derby then train continuosly at the difficulty that will be encountered at a Licensed Derby. If the goal is to place then train continuosuly at levels more difficult than will be seen at a trial. Harry
 
#43 ·
That is a great post, Jen... (poor bird boy..LOL)

Best, Judy
 
#53 ·
Yup FC/AFC/CFC Yo You Kaytee KK won the Derby and got a second in the Amateur at the same trial at about 22 months old. I think she had 30 derby points as I recall and sold her just out of the derby. She ran her first derby at about 18 months and her last at two with 7 or 8 all age starts while in the Derby or just a short time out. She never developed line manner issues, but, was the exception with others I trained and sold. She was always trained with the all age in mind. If you are blessed with one of those great, otherwise take your time.
 
#54 ·
Jennifer,

Listen to Breck. I had fun in the two derbys that I ran. I finished one (you would have thought I had a Blue ribbon) and went out on the third series of the other. He was young and had not seen too much techincal water. You can walk to line with leash which was a comfort to me. While I learned he was steady, he used the whole mat. I am reducing the size of his mat :).


Mary Beth
 
#57 ·
One good thing about going to observe is that you'll get a better idea of how you think your dog will cope with derby setups. I guess asking the age of the pup should have been the first thing to ask about, but no harm done. Go, watch, learn, and enjoy. I don't think it's necessary to wait until you think you can win it to enter, but you do want to be capable enough to get through it without embarassing yourself, LOL.
 
#58 ·
Not sure whar Ted is saying. What "bad" things are learned in the Derby? If you have a genuine future FC-AFC candidate in training, on a proven program, Derby tests should fit in well with the normal training progresasion from 13-14 months and older. Maybe things have changed. Back in the late 70's and early 80's when derby entries were 40-60 dogs, triples were not that uncommon. Have Derbys regressed??
 
#59 ·
Dogs running derby are usually right in the middle of transition training and have lots to learn. Too much derby with cheaty situations and short flyers will unravel some young dogs requiring remedial training which = bad because the dogs lesson plan is hosed. What often happens, especially with amateurs, is they don't recognize trouble nor have the stones to blow the whistle and pickup their dog when it creeps, cheats or switches what have you. Triples are rarely if ever seen in Derby. Judges that try triples these days will probably need to endure being run over by the bus.
 
#62 ·
Amen Ted. My dog learned your 10 lessons in derby REALLY well. Still working hard on correcting those habits 2 years later.
 
#65 ·
I'd guess 75% of field trial judges don't know what a clicker is so, you might be able to get away with using it on the line. The other 25% are deaf so, might be a good gamble. :)
 
#66 ·
I'd guess 75% of field trial judges don't know what a clicker is so, you might be able to get away with using it on the line. The other 25% are deaf so, might be a good gamble. :)
Handlers have used Clickers in Field Trails for years before Clickers were ever invented.
Except it's called a pocket full of change.
 
#67 ·
Having read the entire post I find it interesting the conflict of opinions :). It really boils down to knowing your dog & the level they have attained. Anyone who misses running their dog in the Derby is missing a treat. Aside from consistently poor judging, waiting for the major stake dogs to show, watching the dogs perform is in itself rewarding, & Derby tests go much faster :cool:.

The list is long of those dogs who were & are NC's & NAFC's who were also campaigned in the Derby, in some cases extensively. Probably the most shining example of that would be River Oaks Corky, a true gentleman on the line, who won more than his share of awards :). I could go on beyond that but hopefully you get the point.
 
#68 ·
The list is long of those dogs who were & are NC's & NAFC's who were also campaigned in the Derby, in some cases extensively. Probably the most shining example of that would be River Oaks Corky, a true gentleman on the line, who won more than his share of awards :). I could go on beyond that but hopefully you get the point.

Any more current examples - say within the past decade?
 
#74 ·
According to the Retriever Results database (2004-2012):
FC NAFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade had 36 pts
NFC-AFC Seaside's Pelican Pete had 39 pts
NFC Watermark's Running Back had 27 pts

Some other NAFC and NFCs had just a few points.
 
#77 ·
I am delighted that so many of you want to run the legs off of your young dogs. Makes my job in the All Age Stakes that much easier.
 
#82 ·
Ted and others who judge, one of the things I've seen with Derby, as mentioned is the degradation of line manners, including creeping/vocal/ripping down holding blinds, breaking etc is that routinely judges will place these dogs. I've seen dozens of dogs so out of control and vocal, place never to be seen past derby again. I think judges indirectly reward handlers and encourage them to run derby even though it ultimately not in the best interest of improving the breed. While I understand the main goal of derby is marking, ultimatly the point of FT's is to find the best performing dogs and improve the breed. Placing these dogs and rewarding that behavior seems counter productive to those goals.

/Paul
 
#95 ·
Ted and others who judge, one of the things I've seen with Derby, as mentioned is the degradation of line manners, including creeping/vocal/ripping down holding blinds, breaking etc is that routinely judges will place these dogs.

/Paul

I can only speak as to how I judge. I will make notes on my judging sheet. For example
- Noise in HB, Noise on retrieve
- Forged to line
- 6' out
There have been dogs that I was prepared to drop (but dropped themselves before the end)
There have been dogs that I dropped places because of line manner, voice, etc. issues - upon consultation with my co-judge of course
It is a big deal to me. Not so big to others
 
#85 ·
The Derby is supposed to be ALL about marking, nothing could be further from the truth.

Straight lines win FT's, the Derby is no exception.
Dog A beaches early then goes directly to the bird...Dog B stays in the water with the same outcome.
In all else they are practically a carbon copy of each other with regard to all other aspects of their work.

.....they do not run another series so who places higher ;-)

john
 
#86 ·
The Derby is supposed to be ALL about marking, nothing could be further from the truth.

Straight lines win FT's, the Derby is no exception.
Dog A beaches early then goes directly to the bird...Dog B stays in the water with the same outcome.
In all else they are practically a carbon copy of each other with regard to all other aspects of their work.

.....they do not run another series so who places higher ;-)

john
John, this deserves it's own thread & is off subject :confused:.
 
#103 · (Edited)
"sit, way out, here, good, sit, here, good, right-there, JOHN-MARVIN". Dog goes out and starts chasing his tail......
Probably from all that verbiage on the line... First rule of call name selection...... keep it short .

john
 
#104 · (Edited)
I always wondered about people saying too many Derbies ruining a dog. Then the same dog is double staked in the Open and the Am. 20 times a year for the next 5 years.

Never heard anyone say that running 10 series at a National would ruin a dog either.

The Derby is the most "fun" phase of the "Field trial experience."
 
#108 ·
Ok, so this is what I've gathered from this conversation regarding running your pup in the derby:

•Training: Do yourself a favor and get pup through Swim-by, water decheating. Make sure pup can do LOOONG marks and long tricky doubles.

•Maturity or Steadiness: If you have a crazy lunatic who is only steady with an e collar on its neck, may want to work on steadiness and let pup mature before running.

•Readiness: If you have a pup who's steady when flyers are being shot as the first mark of a double and remains steady for the second mark, can run a decent line through land/water combos and is a really good marker at 350 yards - then go and have fun at the derby.

Bonus: If you meet all the above requirements, you can almost immediately enter the next phase of competition when you have aged out of Derby (as long as you've been training for blinds).

Any corrections or additions?
 
#110 ·
That's basically IT :), but there will be detours along the way. Something always comes up new & unusual.
 
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