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The Derby Stake

29K views 112 replies 55 participants last post by  Breck 
#1 ·
Looked at the AKC FT rule book and found little description of the derby or any other stake. Not sure if I was looking at an outdated copy or not. It was a direct link from the AKC web site.

Also did an RTF search that brought up 20 pages worth of threads and none addressed this question.

What is the typical make-up of a derby stake? Won't be able to attend one until the first weekend of Feb., but curious to compare my girl's training level with that required of the Derby.

Typically, how many series are there? 2? 4? And what's the progression of series? Land singles, Land multiples, water singles, water multiples?

And how many multiples? Doubles only or are there triples?

Thanks,
Jen
 
#2 ·
Usually 4 series.

Usually doubles on land and water. Can run singles, not sure if trips are allowed.

It has been awhile since I ran one. I'm sure someone will chime with the actual rules, but that would be my expectations.
 
#3 ·
Derby is usually 4 series, 2 land series and 2 water series, usually doubles. Marks, only. Handling is an automatic disqualiication.

Some (few) derbies have one or more series that is a single. Some change the order, and have water earlier. Some (few) only have 3 series.

I have never seen a triple in a derby, but have heard rumors of it happening. Never seen a retired gun, but have seen some birdboys that are out of sight enroute, and some that are hard enough to see after sitting down, that they are virtually retired.
 
#4 ·
Typically there are 4 series. 2 doubles on land and 2 doubles on water. There could be a single, but probably not. The marks will typically be AA type marks but just a double. No honors, no blinds.

You can bring your dog to the line on a leash, but once you take it off and signal for the birds the dog must be steady. You can stop the dog if it breaks, have a "controlled break" and still run. Dog must deliver to hand and then you can take it offline on a leash, and no clickers
 
#5 ·
4 series in a derby 2 land 2 water marks are mostly doubles have seen singles but if there's a single most likely it's a really difficult single as far as for marks go expect every thing marks can range from 100yards to 350yard or more
 
#6 ·
If time is tight sometimes the judges will combine two series. For example, they'll have a double set up and you'll run it from one matt, then after completing it you'll go to another matt, facing a different direction where the guns/gunners stations from the first series are not visible and and run a single or double.
 
#7 ·
I have seen one triple in a few years back, mostly doubles. Could have a flyer in first series and could have one in the last. Judges only have to have as many series as it take to find a clear winner. Can bring the dog to the line on lead. Dog need to be able to go to memory bird that the dog looses sight of in route with out going back to an old fall. A handle is a automatic D/Q. I have heard a lot of judges say the like to throw two in, two out, two left and two right? The dog needs to stay in the water, some judges like what is called two down shore. Dog picks up first bird on shore line has to go by that gunner on the way to memory bird down same shore line, with out going back to old fall. Judges have alot of levety to do what they want. Dog can't go back to old fall or be handled.

Good luck
David Wolfe
 
#10 ·
not after you signal for the birds. That can be considered a control break. Might do it one series, if you do in the next you are probably done.
 
#12 ·
Running a derby is not a piece of cake, it's not like running a junior in a hunt test. I personally wouldn’t run a derby until I spent the whole day at least watching one and asking questions from the people in the gallery. If you are going to the trial in Corning CA that starts the first of Feb., you will be able to see some great derby dogs that were trained by some of the best trainers in the business. Enjoy the trial and best of luck to you.
 
#13 ·
Thanks Terry, I plan on attending at Corning for the sole purpose of watching to make sure we're ready before the Anderson or Gridley Trial. I know competition and standards are high, but gotta start somewhere. My pup is pretty awesome, not sure her handler can rise to the occasion, but I hope to re-assess after watching at Corning.

Thanks to all for the info!!

Jen
 
#15 ·
Derby is, and should be, about Pin-Point Marking.
Your dog is basically ready to run Derby if he's able to do a rather complicated cheating single as the memory mark of a double. This means stepping on big long ass marks without needing much help at all.
Your dog should be seeing duck flyers often, at least once a week. Your dog should hopefully not be a gun runner.
He should have been introduced to retired guns or at least been exposed to guns that disappear from view in route. You will not see retired guns in a Derby, however often there is rolling terrain or swims where dogs cannot see guns for part of the way.

For running your dog try not to over think it and keep to the bare basics since you'll be running your first one.
Most people will come out of the holding blind and casually sit their dog on the mat without much fussing and give dog a moment to survey the situation and identify the guns on their own. Take your time with this as no one is likely to pressure you.
Next it's time to get busy and line him up on the long mark. (Your dog should spot the flyer station no problem so best not to point it out to him further) Give him your verbal cues "Mark" or "Watch" for the long gun and when he's staring that mark down real good, and not eye balling the flyer, maybe tell him "good" or "right there" or whatever you say. (verbal cues are a good thing). Give him one more Sit command to lock him in, then quickly signal judges. No need for you to look up at long dead bird being thrown because you should already know where that ones going to land anyway. Do have a peek at the flyer as it's shot so you know where it lands. Otherwise don't take your eyes off of your dog.

So, if your dog can mark, has been decheated and count to two, go for it and have fun.
 
#17 ·
Just go run one, that's the way to find out what they are about. You can't know if your dog can do it if you don't enter.

If your dog is awesome like you think, she will help you out. In my first FT I had mine lined up to watch the marks go off in the wrong order, but she's smarter than me and figured it out!

Folks around here are awfully nice to the newbs, and the judges are understanding. You'll have a blast.
 
#18 ·
Jennifer, "Don't let these dorks bother you,they have the winter crazies":p

Seriously though, pay your dollar and take your chance.

You will have a much greater understanding of field trials on Monday morning. Take in as much as you can. ie don't leave when/if your dog goes out... Stay ,watch, learn.

Good luck and have fun.
 
#19 ·
Jen, Derby is not easy. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take a shot at it. Go see a couple and train with some people who have run/are running Derby. As RND said, you will have a greater understanding of field trials. Also, as WRL posted, there will be technical marks.
 
#22 ·
I would like to add to the discussion on the technical aspects of the marks. The dog needs to be completely de-cheated on water entries as virtually all of the derbies I ran a couple years ago included a cheating element on the water marks. Also the dog needs to understand not returning to an old fall. I think most dogs that I remember being dropped from competition was because they returned to old falls. This may sound simple, but many judges have a way of setting up tests to really entice a return to an old fall. As mentioned before, two down the shore is a good method, also a tight hip pocket throw with the long bird the go bird and the short bird gun station not being visible enroute, but with the long gun station clearly visible on a knoll or something. Anyway, my take home from derbies is they are really tough usually and I would not run a young dog until it is really steady on the line, doing tight doubles a high percentage of time in training and very reliable on getting in the water and holding a line. My dog was not that great on line manners when I ran derbies and now at 4 years old, I am still fighting her on line manners....some of that problem I think started because I ran her in derbies before she was rock solid on the line. Good luck and have fun with your dog!
 
#23 ·
As someone who has only run one derby, you can take my advice with a large pinch of salt, LOL.

My pup already had her JH and RN titles when we went to the chessie specialty last year in Cascade, ID. I had never even SEEN a derby, but everyone encouraged us to enter. We were there a day early, so I got to watch one full day of upper level dogs running before the derby started, and asked a lot of questions. Skill-wise, we were ready, although we had only practiced long marks for 2 weeks before we went, as we had been training for junior right up until that time. It was loads of fun! I am seriously tempted to find another couple of derbies to enter this spring. Granted, open derbies are probably more difficult and competitive than a special, but for an owner handler who isn't worried about competing with client dogs (and therefore spending someone else's money!) it's an oportunity to gain experience and learn something new. I fully expected to go out on the first series: I didn't go expecting to be competitive. What I expected was to learn, observe, meet people, and give it a shot, and we did. Actually, we ended up in the ribbons, but that was pure luck, LOL.

For now, keep on asking questions and try to practice some of the new stuff so you and your dog won't be taken aback by sometime completely unexpected. The main thing I worked on with my girl was stretching her out with lots of loooong singles and line manners. I was not in the habit of "pointing out" the gun stations, someone told me about that on the first day. Taking time to let her look and get the feel for where the gunners were was new to us both, but she picked up on that right away, even though we really did it the first time in the first series. You can start doing that now so you'll be ready :)
 
#24 ·
Love the encouragement! And hearing everyone's experiences with their first time. We're not trying to get on the Derby list nor am I spending anyone else's money (cept my husbands!) So I think we'll go for it. She's been doing long marks and doubles for months and is a naturally good lining dog, even through obstacles and water. She has very good line manners and steadiness, though I have been saying a quite "stay" inbetween the first and second marks of a double. Will do some de-cheating training the next 4 weeks and see what we can do. Sunshine and 63 degree temps for the next two weeks here on the Nor Cal coast.
 
#26 ·
Another good source to learn about derbies (and other FT stakes) is the Judges Manual produced by Retriever News. A number of very knowledgeable people contributed to it.
 
#28 ·
Unfortunately, most don't or think that it's not relevant anymore.

What are the distances of the marks? Is there a difference in the lenght between land and water marks? Thanks
Up to 400 yards. The distances shouldn't be any different from land and water as long as we are testing good marks. The distances don't always mean anything. It's the difficulty of the mark that matters.
 
#27 ·
What are the distances of the marks? Is there a difference in the lenght between land and water marks? Thanks
 
#29 ·


Second series, go bird on left, long bird on right at 436 yards. Both thrown in.
 
#30 ·
Don't wanna high jack this thread but what age are derby dogs when they are really competitive? I know you can run them till there 2 but what age are most of the winners?
 
#31 ·
Purely a guess on my part, but a lot of dogs seem to really come into their own in the 18 to 20 month old range and are good until they age out.

Don't take this as gospel as every dog is different.
 
#34 ·
Purely a guess on my part, but a lot of dogs seem to really come into their own in the 18 to 20 month old range and are good until they age out.

Don't take this as gospel as every dog is different.
Yup that's what I'm hoping for with my young one (Mr. Riot by Ruckus), but at 7 months we have a LONG way to go until we can think about Derbies....and as the time gets closer I have to make sure I don't pester CL too much about running even though I can't wait to run another Derby!
 
#32 ·
Thanks Howard
 
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