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Thread: The Derby Stake

  1. #81
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kip View Post
    i thought i was the only one that felt that way.

    As Big Jake would say "Not hardly."

    I wonder why I bother to even post on the subject. Everyone is convinced that they are the exception, rather than the rule

    Eight years ago, I was running Buffy in the Derby in Niland - the details are fuzzy. I remember a very promising young dog, who had line manner and noise issues. Everyone commented on it - behind the handler's back, of course. I went up to her and suggested that she take a break before the dog was ruined. She didn't, of course. And her dog was one of those who could pound the marks, but could never close the deal. And every trial, as a judge or competitor, I see more dogs and handlers go down the same path.

    For those of you who think if Lottie can do it, so can you ... Hey, Kippy and I are laughing. And Bohn is ready to make you a client.
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Ted and others who judge, one of the things I've seen with Derby, as mentioned is the degradation of line manners, including creeping/vocal/ripping down holding blinds, breaking etc is that routinely judges will place these dogs. I've seen dozens of dogs so out of control and vocal, place never to be seen past derby again. I think judges indirectly reward handlers and encourage them to run derby even though it ultimately not in the best interest of improving the breed. While I understand the main goal of derby is marking, ultimatly the point of FT's is to find the best performing dogs and improve the breed. Placing these dogs and rewarding that behavior seems counter productive to those goals.

    /Paul
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    As Big Jake would say "Not hardly."

    I wonder why I bother to even post on the subject. Everyone is convinced that they are the exception, rather than the rule

    Eight years ago, I was running Buffy in the Derby in Niland - the details are fuzzy. I remember a very promising young dog, who had line manner and noise issues. Everyone commented on it - behind the handler's back, of course. I went up to her and suggested that she take a break before the dog was ruined. She didn't, of course. And her dog was one of those who could pound the marks, but could never close the deal. And every trial, as a judge or competitor, I see more dogs and handlers go down the same path.

    For those of you who think if Lottie can do it, so can you ... Hey, Kippy and I are laughing. And Bohn is ready to make you a client.
    This post insinuates that unless someone subscribes to your game plan they are wrong. Yet when provided concrete proof that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat you fail to acknowledge that can exist.

    Not all are blessed with someone willing to stay home do the tough stuff & allow absentee owner/competitors to reap the rewards . You are fortunate enough to live where you do & have those benefits. Putting a dog with a pro in this part of the country is on their terms not yours, so most of us muddle along as we do or did with many notable successes.

    I came close to buying Cosmo as a teenage Derby dog, when Terry saw I was interested he decided not to sell. I later passed that on to someone who knew the dog & both of us well as I was thankful for not having the dog with the attendant results. His comment "you would not have allowed that line manner situation to happen".

    It's not the dog - none of the dogs capable of competing successfully at the FT level train themselves - it's the owner & their ability to take the dog through a program to achieve a result that is satisfactory to the person paying the bills. A lot of people with dogs do not have the temperament to train anything at this level. There are a lot of judgments made along the way that affect the end result.

    3 people train together, week in & week out, all go to the same pro, pups are all from the same litter, yet the only pup that turns out is the pup picked last. That tells me there is a lot more personal in this sport than folks realize. As Guy Burnett said " talk to the trapper with the pelts, if you are going to be a trapper" .
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  4. #84
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    This post insinuates that unless someone subscribes to your game plan they are wrong. Yet when provided concrete proof that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat you fail to acknowledge that can exist.

    Not all are blessed with someone willing to stay home do the tough stuff & allow absentee owner/competitors to reap the rewards . You are fortunate enough to live where you do & have those benefits. Putting a dog with a pro in this part of the country is on their terms not yours, so most of us muddle along as we do or did with many notable successes.

    I came close to buying Cosmo as a teenage Derby dog, when Terry saw I was interested he decided not to sell. I later passed that on to someone who knew the dog & both of us well as I was thankful for not having the dog with the attendant results. His comment "you would not have allowed that line manner situation to happen".

    It's not the dog - none of the dogs capable of competing successfully at the FT level train themselves - it's the owner & their ability to take the dog through a program to achieve a result that is satisfactory to the person paying the bills. A lot of people with dogs do not have the temperament to train anything at this level. There are a lot of judgments made along the way that affect the end result.

    3 people train together, week in & week out, all go to the same pro, pups are all from the same litter, yet the only pup that turns out is the pup picked last. That tells me there is a lot more personal in this sport than folks realize. As Guy Burnett said " talk to the trapper with the pelts, if you are going to be a trapper" .
    Marvin, as you well know this game breeds experts. Just ask any of us who have ever thrown a mark or walked to to the line with a dog how to do anything with a mutt and we will have the answer. Not only that, we will tell you why your way is wrong. If don't believe me, just ask

    Heck, just sit in the gallery at any trial or especially a national and just listen... funnier yet, my wife was recording my run at a National one year... She recorded every series from the gallery. It was more fun listening to all the BS from those sitting around her than watching the tape! And they could plainly see that she was taping...
    Bill Davis

  5. #85
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    The Derby is supposed to be ALL about marking, nothing could be further from the truth.

    Straight lines win FT's, the Derby is no exception.
    Dog A beaches early then goes directly to the bird...Dog B stays in the water with the same outcome.
    In all else they are practically a carbon copy of each other with regard to all other aspects of their work.

    .....they do not run another series so who places higher

    john
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    The Derby is supposed to be ALL about marking, nothing could be further from the truth.

    Straight lines win FT's, the Derby is no exception.
    Dog A beaches early then goes directly to the bird...Dog B stays in the water with the same outcome.
    In all else they are practically a carbon copy of each other with regard to all other aspects of their work.

    .....they do not run another series so who places higher

    john
    John, this deserves it's own thread & is off subject .
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  7. #87
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Once Ammo aged out, she did not compete for over 2 years in AKC. Obviously a very talented dog and obviously the derby did not ruin her! But I got the impression that her derby career took time away from all age training. So I guess it is about what you wanna do, how you wanna play.
    After Derby the dog ran in Canada due to AKC suspension.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    After Derby the dog ran in Canada due to AKC suspension.
    CKC honors AKC suspensions!!!!!!!
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  9. #89
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    OH OK, maybe the suspension was satisfied before then.
    "Darla" AFC Candlewoods Lil Smokin Tequila (2002-2013)(fondly remembered)
    "Smoke" Smokin Auggies Menace, QAA (2003- )(retired nut case, ask Rando)
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  10. #90
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    As Big Jake would say "Not hardly."

    I wonder why I bother to even post on the subject. Everyone is convinced that they are the exception, rather than the rule

    Eight years ago, I was running Buffy in the Derby in Niland - the details are fuzzy. I remember a very promising young dog, who had line manner and noise issues. Everyone commented on it - behind the handler's back, of course. I went up to her and suggested that she take a break before the dog was ruined. She didn't, of course. And her dog was one of those who could pound the marks, but could never close the deal. And every trial, as a judge or competitor, I see more dogs and handlers go down the same path.

    For those of you who think if Lottie can do it, so can you ... Hey, Kippy and I are laughing. And Bohn is ready to make you a client.
    That does not mean all new people are not ready to listen. I think you all experienced members have much to offer and I appreciate that and your words of wisdom. Thanks and keep posting.
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