Training on marks,Handle,recall, attrition???

[Rnd]

An old thread brought back to life is talking about marking drills etc.etc.

Breck in a reply to that thread brought up what I (and others) thought might make a good discussion.

Here is Brecks reply to said thread:

Look, a mark is a mark. There are many so called drills that are great depending on the dogs level.
What is rarely if ever discussed here is how to Train the dog to run marks and what to do when things go wrong, pitfalls and the ramifications of not handling, recalling, correcting etc when necessary and at the correct time.

So lets start with your young transition dog. Dog has been through the yard work, FF, pile work, basic handling and lining skills.
When you get to the field how do you teach and how do you correct for some of these concepts??

Feel free to add situations or expound on any marking concept you feel like.

1) Cheating singles, simple and complex.

2) Retired guns

3) Check down marks

4) Switching, going to an old fall,

5) fading with factors.

I I have no real questions here. Just thought it might fun to discuss the concepts ,technics and corrections or solutions.

[2tall]

I'd like to start with the cheating singles. First of all, can someone define simple and complex cheating singles. The only method I have ever learned is to start close to the "cheaty" factor, ie corner of a pond or brush pile on land, and work back to distance. If they fail, move back up. So when does a correction come into play? How do you know when they've "got it", but are avoiding the issue? (Thanks Rnd for starting this one, I've been looking forward to it!)

[Breck]

A simple cheating single would be an angle entry into pond to mark thrown on land at far side behind a white target bumper placed at waters edge visable to dog.
Make the entry also obvious to dog by placing a chair at the waters edge 1 yard to the side of line to mark. Criteria for recall, or recall with heat would b if dog does not brush past chair or caves into land early on the swim.

[Tim Carrion]

Attrition plays a role in all 5 of the concepts. Each of these concepts is introduced in their most simplistic form taking into consideration things like angle of cheat, timing of the retire, separation and order of marks/retrieves, etc.
Handling is to improve the route to the area of the fall once there any aid comes from the thrower. Not all handles involve a correction.
Recall occurs at blatant disobedience or when the dog just turns me off. At this stage I don't want them to retrieve/ be rewarded. Correction in this case is for the disobedience

Decision times comes after the retrieve, handle or recall. When successful: How much do I increase the complexity in advancing the concept? OR What component caused the problem? Can I further simply to achieve success? How, When And Where can I repeat the concept?

JMO

Tim

[tejohns3]

Attrition plays a role in all 5 of the concepts. Each of these concepts is introduced in their most simplistic form taking into consideration things like angle of cheat, timing of the retire, separation and order of marks/retrieves, etc.
Handling is to improve the route to the area of the fall once there any aid comes from the thrower. Not all handles involve a correction.
Recall occurs at blatant disobedience or when the dog just turns me off. At this stage I don't want them to retrieve/ be rewarded. Correction in this case is for the disobedience

Decision times comes after the retrieve, handle or recall. When successful: How much do I increase the complexity in advancing the concept? OR What component caused the problem? Can I further simply to achieve success? How, When And Where can I repeat the concept?

JMO

Tim

Handle with no correction on a mark? Correct me if im wrong but if your running a derby in a FT then arent you disqualified for a handle to a mark
? So therefore wouldnt you correct if they missed the mark in training?

[Breck]

An example of a complex cheating single, reusing the previous example as the starting point or 1st half.
You will use two ponds that are close together and throw mark at far end of 2^nd pond. Set it up so so that you have 4 angles. An angle entry and angle exit from the previous example then an angle entry into second pond and an angle exit. Your bird boy from the simple cheating single can be placed off line a little further and just sit there to create suction. For a more difficult cheating single have bird boy retire once dog enters first pond. For more difficulty back up from 1st pond 100 yards.
This type of mark is typical of the money bird of a triple or quad thrown in the 4th series of an all-age stake.

edit:
PS
Normally intro to cheating singles follows swimby. After swimby make sure dogs gets a good dose of Get in, stay in, and re-enter (line/cast) into the Water. Get dog comfortable treading water/stopping (use rope). Also work on Disciplined Casting.

[Breck]

Handle with no correction on a mark? Correct me if im wrong but if your running a derby in a FT then arent you disqualified for a handle to a mark
? So therefore wouldnt you correct if they missed the mark in training?

Not only no but hell no. A good idea is to follow the 3 H's. Help, Handle, Hurt.

[copterdoc]

So therefore wouldnt you correct if they missed the mark in training?

I wouldn't. At least usually not.

If the concept is clearly defined to the dog, and it shows me a real lack of effort to do what it knows it is supposed to do, I will correct.
But, most handles on marks are due to a mistake. It doesn't do any good to "correct" honest mistakes.

[Breck]

First before you get into handling and corrections you need to have a lesson plan in mindbefore bringing each dog to line.
What is your objective? What has dog shown you previously that may be an issue?Will you work on it? Do bird boys need special instructions?
What are Your Standards on line? Will you forget them?
Were you working on certain progressive lessons with your dog? Did the dog understand the previous lesson? Is he ready to move on?
What are your marking standards, for this dog? Prepare in your mind what you will do and not do if certain things crop up. Did dog spot the gun. Did dog see throw? Did he head swing? Did he get up or creep or make noise? Did you make a mistake?
For dog in route to a mark watch and read your dog and try to recognize problems before or while they're happening, not after. What will you do? Help, Bird boy help, Handle using attrition, handle with correction, verbal, collar? Recall without pressure to try again? Recall with heat and cussin' on the way back in for glaring lack of effort?
Maintain your standards, be fair to dog and give him benefit of the doubt. Sometimes You will make a mistake, don't take it out on the dog. If dog is making an effort but failing the marks maybe simplify or give added help. Maybe bird boy moves or yells hey hey so dog can see him. Maybe bird boy stays standing after throwing. Maybe bird boy throws another bird while dog is in route. Maybe you want bird boy to sit still and not help at all. ......................

[copterdoc]

...When you get to the field how do you teach and how do you correct for some of these concepts??....

I think that the key, is to clearly define for the dog what you want.

Just because your set-up is harder for the dog to do "wrong", does not mean that it is "simplified".

It's just more vague.
The dog might do it "right", but if it doesn't know what was "right" about it, the dog doesn't LEARN anything!

Making it black and white, is key. You can simplify it, by making it easier for the dog to do "right", but you can't afford to blur the definition of the key concept to the dog.

If your set-up is clearly defined, and made simple enough for the dog to get it right, it's easy to read lack of effort and correct, or to read lack of education, and teach with attrition.