Training on marks,Handle,recall, attrition???

[Tim Carrion]

Handle with no correction on a mark? Correct me if im wrong but if your running a derby in a FT then arent you disqualified for a handle to a mark
? So therefore wouldnt you correct if they missed the mark in training?

A few thoughts:
FT rules do not determine when or if to correct. Missing a mark is not a reason to correct. Taking the wrong route to a mark can be a reason to handle but correction is not always part of handling.

Recent example:Technical all-age single, 3 water entries all tight to the shore. Dog cheats 3rd entry stopped brought back into 2nd piece of water stopped and cast. No correction. If after cast dog takes 3rd piece of water, lesson learned. If cheats again stop-correct- back to 2nd piece of water and cast.

Tim

[Rnd]

A few thoughts:
FT rules do not determine when or if to correct. Missing a mark is not a reason to correct. Taking the wrong route to a mark can be a reason to handle but correction is not always part of handling.

Recent example:Technical all-age single, 3 water entries all tight to the shore. Dog cheats 3rd entry stopped brought back into 2nd piece of water stopped and cast. No correction. If after cast dog takes 3rd piece of water, lesson learned. If cheats again stop-correct- back to 2nd piece of water and cast.

Tim

There have been some good reply's in this thread but, I wanted to bring attention to the "Red" in the Quote by Tim.

1) It has been my experience that many new and inexperienced trainers feel the need to "correct" instead of "teach" when a dog misses a mark.

2) Technical all age single is an oxymoron to some folks. Many don't get it, that these are taught as singles first and not pounded into the dog as it goes.

There are some very knowledgeable folks here at RTF. These posts that address the "WHY" and not just the how make for interesting reading.

I'm sure these types of threads help those members/lurkers that want information but don't post.

[gdgnyc]

RND

Good thread. How common is it for trainers to correct rather than teach? My observation is that it is way too common.

[steve schreiner]

As stated ,teaching a line to a mark or a blind doesn't have to have pressure used...Teaching by attrition is the first step ,if that doesn't work then you can come with some pressure to reinforce your desires....In the use of attrition there are several chances given to the dog to get it right before the pressure is applied...If the dog is giving effort to do your wishes there is no reason to use pressure...When they are reluctant to give to your wishes after being shown many time the correct response then it is time for pressure...In the video Problem and Solutions by Danny and Judy they use a blind to demonstrate this very well ....If you substitute a thrower for the pile and throw a mark each time you are getting a "free" send as Jim Kappas called it ...The dog is more apt to go with gusto...Steve S

[gdgnyc]

I have the video and really like it.

[Granddaddy]

I may have missed it in reading this thread to this point, but I haven't seen any discussion relative to the dog's age or prior training. And when it comes to the appropriate "teaching" technique, the age and prior training, IMO, are the keys to how and why. For young dogs, less than all age competitive, I would, as a rule, not handle on training marks and also generally not correct with a collar nick - when running all age difficulty level marks except where the dog violates prior training where the dog as been taught and has learned a proper response. Instead I would make use of bird boy help, as necessary, to keep the dog on line to the bird & particularly keep the dog from backsiding the gun. Obviously, this doesn't apply to cheating singles which is primarily a young dog drill where conventional training is to use attrition or correct on cheating singles for dogs not yet of all age skill.

This is just one example, where there are just too many variables with age and prior training/dog's current level to make any absolutes or even rules that would properly apply universally in training for marks. As has been said before, it depends....on a lot of variables. So it would seem critical in a discussion like this to qualify as to a dog's age and prior training for each rule or technique described.