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Thread: e collar to fetch to much preasure? to soon?

  1. #1
    Senior Member sick lids's Avatar
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    Default e collar to fetch to much preasure? to soon?

    In a way I would have to say that I have been very lucky to have such a smart and soft pup. However I think I am running into a small roadblock with the e collar to fetch, I am following smartworks, and have made one mistake with having pup [go get it] instead of fetch, lol. I did the ear pinch and spent about 4 days on it, pup started to reach on the fourth pinch to my surprise. It took 2 1/2 more days to get to the ground and the next day was moving like a champ as long as long as I had a hold of that ear. I transitioned out of ear pressure to make sure she understood and that has gone well also. When I started to cc to fetch things got hairy, laying on floor, pushing up against me on a medium level 2. We had to basically go thru the whole ff with collar and ear pinch to just with collar. Now that we are moving we take it out side and it all falls apart, I assume its because of being not generalized yet and proceed to remind her of the standards, with a fetch-nick, fetch and she just laid down. I walked up and fetch, ear pinched, and she picked up immediately. She is reluctant to fetch under pressure but dose so very eagerly with none. As a side note I cc to here at a level 2 high and tried a three low and it almost crippled her. A two medium works wonders around all types of distractions, brings an immediate response to any refusal to come here. Would this same pressure be to much for fetch and be causing a lot of the avoidance ,clamming up and lack of desire in this process. Is it normal to have different pressures for different commands as far as the e collar goes? I have not started to move from a simple fetch from the ground as i don't feel this e collar is done yet.

    Just as a funny note after starting ff the next time I took her out for some fun marks for me, I threw one out and let her break for it and said fetch when she was half way there she stopped and headed for the house, this was very easy to fix.

    Pup is 6.5 months old.

    Thanks 2 all who replie

  2. #2

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    Everything that im reading sounds pretty good it sounds like your doin a good job. The cc is to condition the dog to work through the pressure so dont give up , she might be a little muley and needs that high 2 or low 3 and I like to pinch as I burn also, i have found that it helps sometimes. With the transition of cc a few pros are also starting to cc with the basics now before they do ff ( sit here heel ) I have asked why and they say that since these new collars are not near as hot as the old ones that it actually seems faster and easier. I used this on one of the newest puppies im training and it has worked great for me ( just food for thought if you run into and big battle in ff.)
    Last edited by tejohns3; 01-14-2013 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    I'm inclined to say it's a bit soon for e-collar to fetch. The entire process of FF is about pressure conditioning, and I'm suspect that this has not really been taken far enough. Your dog should readily fetch with pressure (ear pinch). I'm concerned that your smart little dog may have only learned to beat the pressure. Any chance of posting some video of a session or two?

    Evan
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  4. #4
    Senior Member sick lids's Avatar
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    Evan pup will reliably fetch to to the ear pinch, even when slightly restrained.

    I gave her off last night and tonight we revisited with the e collar. We started at 1 low and worked up to a 2 high, I think this is her threshold. Working back out, 2med had her charging again and she maintained speed and attitude till no force was applied and done for the night. This was on a single bumper.

    Also when cc to here, a 3 low had her collapsing and screaming. A 2 med gets her head cranking pretty good and has never been refused no matter the distraction.

    Thanks for the reply

  5. #5
    Senior Member Jon Hass's Avatar
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    Sounds like you moved through each portion of force fetch a little too fast. When you think she has a step do it many more times to ensure that step is 99% perfect. Then move on. Ensuring pup is very clear on how to get out of the pressure in each step will make transitioning to the next step easier. By moving to fast you will create demons due to pup not being completely schooled as to how to stop the pressure. You will see this more as you move into FTP those demons will come out.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sick lids View Post
    Evan pup will reliably fetch to to the ear pinch, even when slightly restrained.

    I gave her off last night and tonight we revisited with the e collar. We started at 1 low and worked up to a 2 high, I think this is her threshold. Working back out, 2med had her charging again and she maintained speed and attitude till no force was applied and done for the night. This was on a single bumper.

    Also when cc to here, a 3 low had her collapsing and screaming. A 2 med gets her head cranking pretty good and has never been refused no matter the distraction.

    Thanks for the reply

    Sounds like your moving on faster than you should. It is hard to judge from just reading something, but the number one problem I see with people who are Ff their first dog is that they don't understand when a step is done. It is really hard to tell when a dog has just learned to avoid pressure rather than learned what is being taught. From what you describe about cc she knows avoidance well and I have a hunch that you "smart, soft"pup learned to avoid pressure as much as she truly learned fetch/hold.
    When doing ff and you think one step is solid take another day or three and make sure it is. Where I most often find a hole is when you think something is solid and work it for another day or two. In ff you actually want the dog to fail so you can make the correction. An easy dog that seems to need very few corrections is often not learning what you are teaching.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Good work. It sounds like you've read her threshold correctly, even though a bit of video would help to be accurate about that. So, have done any walking fetch with the collar yet?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

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  8. #8

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    If her head is cranking on a 2 med then that would be my general setting for her and maybe sometimes not so hot when you get to the pile say if she starts dropping the bumper on the way back you can fetch nick fetch on the lower setting but evan can prolly clarify a little better than me on this

  9. #9
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are right in the middle of what I think Spencer called the period of resentment. She's not force fetched yet she's just going along with the program thinking she will be done with it. Keep on training. Like normal training when you advance and she doesn't get it go back to what she understood. I don't know Evan's method so I really can't comment on the steps you've taken and the steps you still have to go, but training is a series of steps advancing and backing up, advancing and backing up. It sounds like you've advanced to much and need to back up some. But, no one is there but you to see what is happening.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    To me it seems like you need to go back and work more on her cc, if she's shutting down or whacking out when you apply e-collar pressure. She's either playing you (not getting enough pressure to stop avoidance behavior) or she hasn't learn yet how to work through nor understand varying degrees of pressure. I'd take her back on the lead and work her through pressure until she can reliably function and come back quickly when different levels e-collar pressure are applied, then put it together with your FF. 2 might be her working level, however she still needs to learn how to come back and work through higher pressure levels, without whacking out. CC is a very important training aspect that's very hard for a first timer to do correctly, there's a distinct difference btw a dog that is really shutting down and a dog who is acting as the world just exploded. Smart dogs often get termed "soft" as they have a way of convincing their owner that the sky is falling, and they cannot possibly take more pressure. It's very hard to determine without experience and impossible to do on the internet you might need guidance to help you read your particular dog.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 01-15-2013 at 01:36 PM.
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