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Thread: Education ... is there any way to fix this?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Greta, there is no question that reading comprehension is crucial to students becoming informed voters.

    If I were being strictly pragmatic, I would say that our real educational problem is with the worst-performing schools. Most of those schools are ones in inner cities. Here in PA, our largest cities have the worst schools: Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh. Here in my local area, the worst-performing school district is in one of our cities, which draws no students outside the city limits, mostly lower-income population. The other two cities consolidated their districts with adjacent suburban townships, so have a more diverse population spanning both high-income and low-income.

    The large cities first mentioned have a very serious problem with violence in their schools. I'd say the best way to have the best impact on our educational situation is to improve the performance of the lowest-performing schools; starting with making them safe for the students (and teachers). All the school systems in our area (which is about 700 square miles), probably accounts for fewer students than the city of Philadelphia, all by itself.

    In schools like those, they cannot draw enough of the best teachers because teaching there is downright dangerous. And, in those circumstances, even the best teacher would have a hard time. I'm guessing that if the kids in those schools can read at 3rd grade level, that is probably the latest age when teachers were able to control the students enough to teach them.

    Maybe the real solution is to examine the schools that perform well, and then apply the precepts to the worst-performing schools in urban settings. That would impact the largest numbers of students who need the improvements most.

    Ayres' program for the Chicago school system (which Obama was involved with in administering the funds for) turned out a dismal failure. It did nothing to improve the academic performance of the students. If Arne Duncan is a follower of Ayres, we have a problem right there. Even that Chicago teachers' union president (that we saw on YouTube video) made fun of Arne Duncan as someone capable of running a school system.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Brad Turner's Avatar
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    Until we make parents responsible for their children, we will not achieve the national success we seek.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Greta, there is no question that reading comprehension is crucial to students becoming informed voters.

    If I were being strictly pragmatic, I would say that our real educational problem is with the worst-performing schools. Most of those schools are ones in inner cities. Here in PA, our largest cities have the worst schools: Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh. Here in my local area, the worst-performing school district is in one of our cities, which draws no students outside the city limits, mostly lower-income population. The other two cities consolidated their districts with adjacent suburban townships, so have a more diverse population spanning both high-income and low-income.

    The large cities first mentioned have a very serious problem with violence in their schools. I'd say the best way to have the best impact on our educational situation is to improve the performance of the lowest-performing schools; starting with making them safe for the students (and teachers). All the school systems in our area (which is about 700 square miles), probably accounts for fewer students than the city of Philadelphia, all by itself.

    In schools like those, they cannot draw enough of the best teachers because teaching there is downright dangerous. And, in those circumstances, even the best teacher would have a hard time. I'm guessing that if the kids in those schools can read at 3rd grade level, that is probably the latest age when teachers were able to control the students enough to teach them.

    Maybe the real solution is to examine the schools that perform well, and then apply the precepts to the worst-performing schools in urban settings. That would impact the largest numbers of students who need the improvements most.

    Ayres' program for the Chicago school system (which Obama was involved with in administering the funds for) turned out a dismal failure. It did nothing to improve the academic performance of the students. If Arne Duncan is a follower of Ayres, we have a problem right there. Even that Chicago teachers' union president (that we saw on YouTube video) made fun of Arne Duncan as someone capable of running a school system.
    I don't disagree with you, Gerry.

    I think so much of the problem comes from external factors... And as usual, I'm split between a "right" solution (local control) or a "left" solution (swoop in and fix it all). Trying to do some version of both seems to have led to a vortex of misery. I just don't know.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Turner View Post
    Until we make parents responsible for their children, we will not achieve the national success we seek.
    Now that's a novel concept... Short, concise and to the point. I like it.
    Bill Davis

  5. #15
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    I along with many on here were a product of the public school system....but the public school systems of today are NOTHING like those of the 60-70's, and I think two major reasons are the parents of today expect the school system to raise their kids, and the inclusion of groups like the ACLU into the disciplinary actions of the school

    When I was jr/sr HS we answered to two people...the boys VP or our athletic coaches...the boys VP was usually a sick sadistic jerk who probably got off on paddling young boys...but our athletic coaches demanded and got our respect, becaise for many of us they decided if we got to play on game day...They were are male role models, our second dad's and they put the fear of god in our heads...they were also able to use corporal punishment (something I never experienced nor in favor of) but the threat of its use was enough of a deterrent..

    Today's student has no fear of repercussions for their acting up in class, NONE whatsoever..detention, big *deal, but when many of us went to school, you screwed up in class, there was hell to pay later...

    The other thing I can not fathom is the elimination of after school activities, besides sports,band,and other wholesome activities, what else did kids of yesteryear do...Nowadays those kids hang out at the malls and get into trouble. We throw money at many problems geared toward minorities only to see them drop out before finishing school, whereas kids that actually finish school could have benefitted from having some financial help are forced to enter the work force at an early age because their parents could not afford to give them the college experience

    We waste so much money in education toward feel good programs that reap nothing at all, its criminal
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Throwing money at education and adding layers of administrative bureaucracy has done nothing to improve the quality of education in this country. All it's done is promote a dumbing-down of education to the lowest common denominator which benefits no child. And I agree with Brad Turner 100%:

    Until we make parents responsible for their children, we will not achieve the national success we seek.


    Sadly, it's not possible to regulate who breeds.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
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  7. #17
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    I along with many on here were a product of the public school system....but the public school systems of today are NOTHING like those of the 60-70's, and I think two major reasons are the parents of today expect the school system to raise their kids, and the inclusion of groups like the ACLU into the disciplinary actions of the school

    When I was jr/sr HS we answered to two people...the boys VP or our athletic coaches...the boys VP was usually a sick sadistic jerk who probably got off on paddling young boys...but our athletic coaches demanded and got our respect, becaise for many of us they decided if we got to play on game day...They were are male role models, our second dad's and they put the fear of god in our heads...they were also able to use corporal punishment (something I never experienced nor in favor of) but the threat of its use was enough of a deterrent..

    Today's student has no fear of repercussions for their acting up in class, NONE whatsoever..detention, big *deal, but when many of us went to school, you screwed up in class, there was hell to pay later...

    The other thing I can not fathom is the elimination of after school activities, besides sports,band,and other wholesome activities, what else did kids of yesteryear do...Nowadays those kids hang out at the malls and get into trouble. We throw money at many problems geared toward minorities only to see them drop out before finishing school, whereas kids that actually finish school could have benefitted from having some financial help are forced to enter the work force at an early age because their parents could not afford to give them the college experience

    We waste so much money in education toward feel good programs that reap nothing at all, its criminal
    Slam dunk... Right on the money Bon. I'm 54 and have the same memories of my Jr high and high school coaches.

    Our football coaches even made us cut our hair if we showed up for practice on the first day with long hair.... Long hair = no play. Strict disciplinarians. We won three straight state championships in HS.
    Last edited by huntinman; 01-20-2013 at 04:24 PM.
    Bill Davis

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Until we allow charter schools nationwide, eliminate the DoE at the national level & emphasize STEM monetarily, which would include making aid for worthless degrees very hard to get.

    I've studied the school thing seriously, as long as we rely on the politicians & the unions to guide the fix, it ain't gonna happen .


    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Greta, there is no question that reading comprehension is crucial to students becoming informed voters.
    Gerry - please see the top quote - recently I read in a responsible publication this: "The US is the most literate nation in the world, what we do not have is the comprehension level to utilize that skill". You normally attain those skills in the analytical atmosphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    I along with many on here were a product of the public school system....but the public school systems of today are NOTHING like those of the 60-70's, and I think two major reasons are the parents of today expect the school system to raise their kids, and the inclusion of groups like the ACLU into the disciplinary actions of the school

    Today's student has no fear of repercussions for their acting up in class, NONE whatsoever..detention, big *deal, but when many of us went to school, you screwed up in class, there was hell to pay later...

    The other thing I can not fathom is the elimination of after school activities, besides sports,band,and other wholesome activities, what else did kids of yesteryear do...Nowadays those kids hang out at the malls and get into trouble. We throw money at many problems geared toward minorities only to see them drop out before finishing school, whereas kids that actually finish school could have benefitted from having some financial help are forced to enter the work force at an early age because their parents could not afford to give them the college experience
    I did my schooling in the 30's-40's with higher ed in the 50"s. My time on the SB was the late 70's but have Gkids going now, so still am involved. But teachers/coaches are no different today than they were then. They enjoy their status over the kids & in many cases abuse it. As I told my sons, if the teachers think you are something special I will be concerned. My experience is they are able to promote the losers because they in general are unable to recognize the winners. Ever wonder why the skill positions in sports in general are occupied by the children of public employees? I asked our Super that one time - got the answer that told me I was right.

    The reason the ACLU got involved was someone in the school system did something truly stupid, when you do that you lose. But a kid can still receive corporal punishment under very strict guidelines. With the proliferation of "degreed" folks in the system wouldn't you think someone would be smart enough to outsmart the wiseacre in the class . When a kid acts up it is in general because they are bored.

    As for kids hanging out, if that it happening the parents relinquished their responsibilities long before the kids were teenagers. If any of you think things are different today than they were in the old days you have another think coming - the Flapper era was not about responsibliity. The nation was lucky enough to have the Great Depression to right the ship.

    There are more pressures on child rearing than those created through the stupidity of the educational bureaucracy. I worked for wages from the time I was 9 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    Throwing money at education and adding layers of administrative bureaucracy has done nothing to improve the quality of education in this country. All it's done is promote a dumbing-down of education to the lowest common denominator which benefits no child.

    Sadly, it's not possible to regulate who breeds.
    When I grew up we had country schools in the center of every 4 x 4 set of sections, taught by HS grads who generally chosen for their skills but educated at the most for 30 weeks in normal schools. We had a County Superintendent who would show about twice a year. There was not extra pay for every duty.

    In our little school there would be from 17 to 25 kids (all grades) taught in open concept. The teacher stoked the fire, made sure there was a bucket of water for drinking & washing, communal dipper & washpan & taught us well. Myself & my two class mates from the 6th grade all went on to Engineering degrees, Mining, Civil & a PHD in Geological Engineering after a stint in Venezuela as a geologist. Both he & his sister died of cancer before they reached 60 which today I find ??????.

    We have paid more into these systems & received less for years. That's why I say charter schools, an emphasis on STEM & a de-emphasis of feel good degrees will right the ship to some degree.

    There is no sane way to regulate who breeds (wasn't that Adolf's thing?) but proper lawmaking can place the carrot in a position that it requires accomplishment to attain it .
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  9. #19
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    Slam dunk... Right on the money Bon. I'm 54 and have the same memories of my Jr high and high school coaches.

    Our football coaches even made us cut our hair if we showed up for practice on the first day with long hair.... Long hair = no play. Strict disciplinarians. We won three straight state championships in HS.
    Hair cuts were the first ritual of the fall, separated the jocks from the rest of the student body....many of my coaches doubled as my shop teachers, history teachers, so there was no such thing as messing around in class..the other teachers had no problem reporting you to your coach if you acted up in class...

    heck even gym class went a long way into building us into young men, guys like me that were soft mama's boys learned to grow a pair and actually became an athlete....I credit my coaches with being the biggest influence in shaping me to be a young man, they taught me to be gracious in defeat and humble when we won, back on a time where we actually shook hands with our opponents, not just some fist bump or fake slap high five
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  10. #20
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    An editorial regarding SOME educators in the school systems.

    http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/artic...tEducators.htm
    Tom Dorroh

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