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Thread: interesting article in Shotgun Life

  1. #1
    Senior Member RobinZClark's Avatar
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    Default interesting article in Shotgun Life


  2. #2
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Not as interesting as learning how to use and apply aversive stimulus as Positive Reinforcement.

    You see, "traditional" Retriever Trainers seldom use the e-collar to punish behavior.
    It's used primarily as reinforcement.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

    Avatar courtesy of RTF"s TZAPPIA

  4. #4
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    When you consider the source (good dogman, not that there's anything wrong with that), how appropriate does this look:



    MG

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    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    I don’t understand why Mr. Milner continues to imply that British trainers don’t use “compulsion” as he calls it. He also confuses “Operant Conditioning” with purely positive training and infers that there is evidence to suggest that purely positive training is more efficient than a balanced approach. I have asked for this evidence from several well known proponents of the 2Q ideology only to realize that it simply comes down to an aversion on the part of the trainer to inflict any degree of pain or stress on their dogs.

    I can accept this philosophy if that’s how they feel, but I do find it to be very disingenuous to attempt to mislead the uninformed into thinking that this approach is as effective as (let alone superior to) a balanced approach. Rather than demonstrate the theory that 2Q >4Q, proponents of Milner’s ideology resort to setting up “straw men” of supposedly sadistic, ignorant & un-read Neanderthals who resort to “shock collars” because they simply haven’t been exposed to the “modern” (1939?) theories of B.F. Skinner. (a man who studied mostly rats & pigeons but wrote about human behavior.)

    It's offensive.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

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    Senior Member EricW's Avatar
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    Always wondered how a can full of pennies being shaken near a dog or thrown at a dog to "distract" or "avert" them (fearing or intimidation in my opinion) was by any means purely positive. I recall the great Victoria Stilwell has used this in her TV shows. I have seen people use this can of pennies method and end up with a dog jumpy towards certain noises and essentially freeze with fear or axiety. I am not discounting the possibility that those poeple did not use the method correcty, thus created their issue. All that aside, I am still curious where I would benefit from a dog being feared or intimidated by noise at which they are much more sensitive to compared to touch.

    As for my purely positive method, my dog treats his e-collar with the same excitement as food, a leash, or even a tennis ball. Fortunately, not with fear or axiety because I dropped the coffee can full of pennies. Every dog is different, every dog needs different training techniques. No all inclusive plan out there will work on every dog with the same desired results.

    On a side note, sure has been ages since I posted on here.

    Eric W.
    "I never let schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Great article from a puppy mill

    /paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  8. #8
    Senior Member Scum Frog's Avatar
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    Love him or hate him, people listen when Mr. Millner speaks.

    Kind of like the Don Cherry of the Retriever world
    Labrador Retriever, a 20g & grouse...is there a better combination?

  9. #9
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    I was skeptical, then saw a dog from his kennel trained by my friend using his methods and was impressed. Drove to Memphis, picked up a dog, trained it by myself with his methods and had the same awesome results(100 yd blinds and steadiness in a year, my first dog I have ever trained). This is all in the same year that i moved, started a job and my wife had a baby. People are going to say its a puppy mill and he is just doing it for the money, and I will go ahead and press the ignore button for your name. I believe the writer of the article was confusing operant conditioning as meaning all positive reinforcement because it is pretty clear from reading Milner's stuff that operant conditioning covers all forms of reinforcement. If it is not your cup of tea let it slide, there are many ways to train dogs, his way was the best for me and worked on my ft/ht bred golden also. Most importantly it was fun for me and my dogs. Slandering his kennel and his wways is not beneficial to the dog training culture. I don't criticize every thread that teaches something different than I would, neither should you

  10. #10
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Don who? If one in a million Americans knew who Grapes was, to even think about wanting to listen to him, you'd be flattering Milner.

    MG

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