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Thread: interesting article in Shotgun Life

  1. #21
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scum Frog View Post
    Love him or hate him, people listen when Mr. Millner speaks.

    Kind of like the Don Cherry of the Retriever world
    You are so correct. I just wish we could get to them before they act.

    BTW I didn't know ya'll had frogs in Canada.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  2. #22
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooley View Post
    Gundog_2002....if your comment was aimed at Robert Milner of Duckhill Kennels.....THAT WAS A CHEAP SHOT.
    A cheap shot is when you step out of the shadows unseen and throw a punch..........Paul hasn't ever stepped out of the shadows, to my knowledge, to throw a punch. As a matter of fact his name and vocation are attached to every post. How about yours?
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  3. #23
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Also from the article:
    “So when you zap a dog on the neck, it makes him want to leave and he will run away from that place. You’ve trained him to run away from you.”

    Got that? No more "Zapping". It explains why you can't catch your dog when you get home from work.

    Honestly, I know most of you don't think we should care about this kind of nonsense but I assure you, more & more people are buying into the propaganda that people like Milner are selling. Soon the question will be asked, Why should "Shock collars" be legal when there are "reams & reams of data" proving that a clicker & a cookie are more effective?
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  4. #24
    Senior Member Scott Adams's Avatar
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    Has Don ever worn a camo suit?
    hmmmmmm
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  5. #25
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    The only thing good about the NHL lockout was not having to shield my eyes from the retinal riot produced by Cherry' grotesque haberdashery.
    power without lumber, raciness without weediness

    A big man never looks down on others.... instead, he is someone to look up to.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    I usually don't do this....but there's no need to compose another post......so I'll just copy the other one and push "submit reply".

    RZClark (or is that "bigbrit"?) said:
    Intereresting article in Shotgun life.
    Here's a selected excerpt from article.
    "“When you apply a punishment, be it a jerk on the neck with a choke collar or a jolt of electricity from a shock collar, it decreases the preceding behavior and it increases the following behavior because it’s an escape mechanism for the dog,” he elaborated. “So when you zap a dog on the neck, it makes him want to leave and he will run away from that place. You’ve trained him to run away from you.”

    With that in mind, the situation deteriorates for most gun dogs, according to Mr. Milner. “If you shock a dog with a bird in his mouth, his neck and jaw muscles contract, which causes him to clamp down or punch holes in the bird. Then the pain goes away. So chomping down on the bird is an escape response because chomping down on the bird turned off the pain.”
    Only the naive would fall for that "line of misinformation". I read it and don't feel the least bit swayed to change.

    This dog is wearing an e-collar. Oh my! Look at the effort she is putting into getting away from me.



    OMG....this dog is wearing an e-collar, too. It is so obvious he is scared to death about it.



    I'm 72 years old. Experience has shown me there is quite often more than one way to succeed. The problem is some seem to think their's is abundantly superior to the "misguided and foolish".

    Frankly, this topic has been "flogged" more than enough. Then again, there is a market that needs to be "enhanced" once-in-awhile....."R Z Clark".


    "Warm and fuzzy" regards, Jim
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 01-21-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    “But as long as we remain ignorant about training dogs with positive reinforcement, we can’t make an intelligent decision on it,” he said.


    So his way is the only way ???

    If he and others decide that they want to click train or treat train ,I'm fine with that (none of my concern and I wont belittle what or how they choose to achieve results) ,but this above quote shows his lack of true care or respect for the retriever sport and his fellow sportsmen . Comments like these paint a picture of animal cruelty to the uneducated or people that are on the fence.

    So not only is he trying to prove his method is better (which is completely acceptable ) ,but he goes further to down grade any other training method ,which seems to have underlying business $$$ motives wrote all over it.

    So if the "pesky neighbor " tries to educate herself and does a google search and Milner's article is the first one she reads then looks out the window and see's someone with a "shock collar " strapped to the dog neck ...What do you think her assumption will be?


    No matter how successful his method may be I have an issue with the way he has continued to try to paint the picture of the caveman mentality of positive reinforcement training and trainers.

    300 puppies a year screams puppy mill to me. that about a 1.25 pup per day birth.
    Shawn White

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  8. #28
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwickLabs View Post
    Only the naive would fall for that "line of misinformation."
    Hey, Kwik, there's always the chance Milner was mis-bloviated, er, misquoted in the article. His intel on US performance Labs has always been so...unbiased and unimpeachable.

    MG

  9. #29
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
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    300 pups per year all with NO clearances - if that doesn't qualify as a puppy mill I would be interested in hearing what your criteria would be?

    Not a cheap shot if it's in the 10 ring regards

    Bubba
    There are three classes of people: those who see...those who see when shown...and those who do not see. - Leonardo da Vinci

  10. #30
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Crackerd said:
    Hey, Kwik, there's always the chance Milner was mis-bloviated, er, misquoted in the article. His intel on US performance Labs has always been so...unbiased and unimpeachable.
    Well, that stopped me in my tracks......had to Google a definition.

    I agree.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 01-21-2013 at 09:14 PM.
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