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Thread: interesting article in Shotgun Life

  1. #41
    Senior Member wheelhorse's Avatar
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    And the crap he spews about search and rescue is insulting.
    Kathleen

    "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you're not, in fact, just surrounded by a**holes" -William Gibson

  2. #42
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    The fact that most of the comments on this forum have been cheap shots and that people are angry, proves that Milner is right. He threatens your culture and it is hard for you to grasp new methods and to think out of the box. The proof is in the pudding and this article exposes it.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Dustin D's Avatar
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    Dog trainer extraordinaire Robert Milner wants to ask sportsmen a personal question:
    Would you discipline your own children with a shock collar?
    No.....b/c their children

  4. #44
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    For those of you that missed this part
    “The end result was I got the dogs and handlers trained in six months instead of 18,” Mr. Milner said of Tennessee Task Force 1. “The lesson I learned from that was the major benefit of positive training is that it’s three times easier for new trainers to learn.”

    Deeper research into clicker training supported his initial observations. He referenced statistics from Guide Dogs for the Blind. In 2005, the organization switched from compulsion training to positive reinforcement. He cited that their pass rate on the dogs increased from 50 percent to 80 percent, while training for the blind handlers declined from six week to two weeks — another instance of that 300-percent improvement.

    “The shock collar industry has convinced him it’s the quick and easy way to train a dog, and that’s total B.S.,” Mr. Milner observed. “Once again, studies have shown that in fact positive training yields 300-percent faster results at a fraction of the cost. Plus the sportsman ends up with a better dog and a much better relationship with the dog.”

  5. #45
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    I trained detection dogs using only positive re enforcement before 911. Its not a revelation to use PR in detection. I find it odd it took 37 years for him to see that.
    The article puff's up the person while deflating others. Not very nice.
    Its the public eye so I guess its OK to comment. Like the 1 guy in a marching band says "everybody else is out of step"


    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 01-22-2013 at 08:01 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  6. #46
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbrit View Post
    The fact that most of the comments on this forum have been cheap shots and that people are angry, proves that Milner is right. He threatens your culture and it is hard for you to grasp new methods and to think out of the box. The proof is in the pudding and this article exposes it.
    bigbrit,
    I thought you were Mr. Milner???
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  7. #47
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    "Once a prominent figure in American field trials, he dropped out of the scene in 1982 after realizing staged challenges typically exaggerated the actual demands of a hunting dog."

    I guess he thought about it and his 'three-times' more effective training methods would make it too easy to mop the floor with the competition with these 'exaggerated' setups.....

    The holes in my birds help speed up the marinating process regards,
    Eric

  8. #48
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    He is right about PR speeding things up ,,,and it is easier for new people to learn. but that statement is extremely limiting and misleading. Dog learn using CC and OC. Dogs correct and use force each other,,, to leave out these important OC's in a training regiment is purely an emotional decision.

    And if you think shocking a dog has to be brutal then you have very limited experience or have had poor experiences in this field. Or you can't get past the emotionalism. Its that simple. Just because other people mentally and physically abuse their kids ,doesn't mean you have to.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  9. #49
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    this is quikly becoming a bash session and the article I admit seems/is aggressive. But the article was written in a Shotgun magazine, not a retrieving magazine. There are probably a good many people reading it that were like me and thought, i want a hunting dog but i don't know what to do. They get on this site and see all these different programs talking about how great they are and in the next post down is someone who is having problems with the same program that was so great in the previous thread. Its intimidating. Then you get the whole, find a training group thing, but when you are juggling home, work, and family life, joining a training group while sounding good, sounds like a hassle. It is almost like i need a religious conversion to become a dog trainer. I need to read these books do these things and go here on these certain days and then i will be able to properly train a dog. Thats what drew me to Milners stuff, it took alot of the questions/stress out of it for me. If you see a good behavior, reward it. I can understand that logic and put it into practice, (momma may have raised an ugly boy but he aint stupid). i have no desire to do HT/FT. I do have a desire to have a hunting companion that performs well in the field. Using his methods i have two great dogs that are a joy to be around, hunt with, and they get me invited on hunts. In a few years I may try some dog games, i may not. But this weekend i know i can depend on my dogs to do the task i need them to do in the swamp and that should be the goal of every training program.

  10. #50
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    Never read or spent much time reading about his methods. Having said that it is all about marketing and he seems to have a handle on it.. So even negative things about his program keeps him alive and well along with his associates.
    In my other life, experience with various guard dogs, police service dogs, military dogs etc, my partner was a marketing wizard. He also promoted home obedience, train any dog over six months old to sit, heel, stay, down and place on lead in two weeks is the joke. Trick was to get the dog owners to work the dog after you gave your one hour lesson a week.
    Earl Dillow

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