question about positive training

[Criquetpas]

The problems in training retrievers but could apply to any type of dog training, it looks so easy, but, it is not ,it is very complex. Add the additional tools of classic e collar training with sound basics and many feel when the dog learns the trick of the exercise, without proofing the exercise they are through. They take it to the field before the dog is ready, it crumbles and create sometimes lifetime problems.Now we want to quick fix it.... Example Ff dog learns the trick, reaches for the bumper and wow that was easy. We don't proof the FF take it to the field and now we have mouth issues or bird issues and it goes on and on. Made a lot of mistakes before I learned through professional help about 25 years ago the classic basic training with the e collars. Trained a lot of dogs before that in so called positive training in many venues. It just didn't work for me. I was always taught by some of the pros I used at the time, there is the easy way and there is the other way. Just one man's opinion.

[Mary Lynn Metras]

See, that's the blindspot. Most owners think they are doing just awesome and know their dogs, meanwhile, have holes they don't even see, and hit walls they have no idea how to get over or around, so lots of stuff just gets ignored. Meanwhile, a pro can see the interaction between owner and dog in the field and size it up pretty quick. Not saying this is you, but just in general, owners have huge egos and pretty big blinders on. Myself included.

I use the word some b/c there some very good amateur owners who do as well as pros!! AND Yes, people do think their dog is doing awesome. I agree. When they get to the actual trial they get an eyeopener and they have to readjust their thinking about their dog. On RTF you see it all the time by the questions asked. They illude to problems but you can tell they are so deep into trouble it is hard for them to regroup. They don't know where to turn unfortunately. That is why this forum is great. The experience of yourself and others on RTF can at least steer them in the right direction even if the comment is go "get help" or look for an experienced person! By no means is the internet RTForum a panicea or a training ground but it is a nice sounding board! IMHO Not disagreeing!Semantics.

[Rainmaker]

I use the word some b/c there some very good amateur owners who do as well as pros!! AND Yes, people do think their dog is doing awesome. I agree. When they get to the actual trial they get an eyeopener and they have to readjust their thinking about their dog. On RTF you see it all the time by the questions asked. They illude to problems but you can tell they are so deep into trouble it is hard for them to regroup. They don't know where to turn unfortunately. That is why this forum is great. The experience of yourself and others on RTF can at least steer them in the right direction even if the comment is go "get help" or look for an experienced person! By no means is the internet RTForum a panicea or a training ground but it is a nice sounding board! IMHO Not disagreeing!Semantics.

Agree, no stiffer competition than a good Amateur. And there's good to be found on forums such as this, provided one takes all with a grain of salt and is able to sort accordingly. Just being given a direction (or 10) to look for help is better than flailing around on one's own.

[hotel4dogs]

This is awesome Darrin, thanks!

@ Barb, I have found that I am able to communicate my method to a pet dog owner a bit more clearly than the email you shared. I do stress the individual needs of the dog and owner in my explanation but I have a few guiding principals I communicate.

1. Dogs need to be taught behaviors, and they need to have those behaviors re-enforced.
2. It's a rare dog and owner combination that can get reliable behavior with a strictly positive method. It can be done, but not by most people with jobs and lives.
3. I always apply the least amount of correction required to create reliability. Amounts and intensity vary widely from dog to dog.
4. A dog shouldn't generally be corrected for a behavior he doesn't know.
5. Using a purely corrective method generally produces a dog that will comply, but won't be happy about it. We want our dogs to be happy!

So... what method do I use? I get asked this a lot.

I use a combination of reward based training to teach behaviors and corrective training to make them reliable.

That blanket statement seems to apply to every single dog I see.

Some owners want something different. By being skilled in reward based and corrective training methods, I am able to adapt my program to the needs of the dog, to the satisfaction of the owner, in most cases. There are always some with very willful, brazen, pushy, tough, aggressive dogs who want to avoid correction. For those, I have to advise carefully and respectfully turn down the business. They usually come back later after the positive only trainer fails.

[Judy Chute]

See Jennifer, I think that's a problem that I have in my training. I love immediate gratification. It's hard for me to break down things into baby-steps (which is why I learn under an excellent pro rather than trying to do it on my own!). I want my dog to just go out and DO it. He did in obedience, he did in agility. Field introduces a whole new set of issues and it's very new to me. But it's a blast!

..."I love immediate gratification."....

Just like Tito!! Ahhhh...owner-handler/retriever minds are on the same page..LOL

Judy

[Judy Chute]

Yes, I haven't been to an FT yet. But I've been to plenty Hunt Tests over 3 years and saw all of the stakes multiple times. Have also served as marshall for Senior.

That doesn't make me an expert or capable of talking about more than I know. I'm guilty of that. I even talk about politics and tax law, but I'm not a politician, tax lawyer or TV pundit.

Jennifer, you are not guilty of anything.. Take that young Golden Retriever that you are totally in love with ...to the upcoming Field Trial, Derby that you are planning to, enjoy and learn something of what it is all about.

Then, while there, if possible, visit any of the other Stakes that are offered.

Sorry, unable to remember if this is a Derby/Q event or a Field Trial with the upper Stakes as well. If there is the AM and Open, try to get over and watch as much as you can. It is an eye opener and well worth your while! Will give you tons of insight into your training goals, the young retriever you have ..and where you have dreams of going with him ...

My very humble advice is to not wait to experience a visit to that world. You may wish that you had later on..

Enjoy..and hope to see a thread on how it went, your thoughts of the whole experience, and possibly that you are hooked!

Judy

[hotel4dogs]

LOLOL, way too true!!

..."I love immediate gratification."....

Just like Tito!! Ahhhh...owner-handler/retriever minds are on the same page..LOL

Judy

[Jennifer Henion]

Jennifer, you are not guilty of anything.. Take that young Golden Retriever that you are totally in love with ...to the upcoming Field Trial, Derby that you are planning to, enjoy and learn something of what it is all about.

Then, while there, if possible, visit any of the other Stakes that are offered.

Sorry, unable to remember if this is a Derby/Q event or a Field Trial with the upper Stakes as well. If there is the AM and Open, try to get over and watch as much as you can. It is an eye opener and well worth your while! Will give you tons of insight into your training goals, the young retriever you have ..and where you have dreams of going with him ...

My very humble advice is to not wait to experience a visit to that world. You may wish that you had later on..

Enjoy..and hope to see a thread on how it went, your thoughts of the whole experience, and possibly that you are hooked!

Judy

Love it, Judy! Thanks so much for your advice and encouragement to get involved. Bird-boy and I will be going to two field trials in February just to watch and take it all in. Judy Rasmussen (sp) will be judging on one of the AMs we are going to and hoping to bump into Janice and John Gunn and Jackie Mertens while there. Since Janice and John are responsible for so many of my pup's immediate parentage, I'm hoping they'll be able to give me some insight on her condition and potential.

As for getting hooked, I feel like I am already! Just need to toughen up the ole hide a little.

Thanks again, Judy!

Good thread, Barb!