question about positive training

[hotel4dogs]

Hey, I don't drive a loser cruiser !

were is Miss Molly MiniVan going to get a bird,
to put in Poofie's mouth
afore they walk down the city bike path and flush a bunny?

[hotel4dogs]

Thanks for the replies. It's interesting to see and learn from other perspectives.

[Jennifer Henion]

Not an expert, but I would approach it with de-sentitazation first.

Get a live bird or two, wrap it so it can't fly. Take dog, the bird and a helper to the garage. Have dog on lead, helper releases bird onto the floor. Dog watches bird, you restrain him and get him to a calm state. Over a few short sessions build up to dog being able to sit still calmly while bird or birds are running around or put in dog's face. If you're a clicker trainer, you can click and treat when dog is showing restraint, but you don't need to do that. Then move the operation to the outdoor in a fenced enclosure, then move to the field (with your own live bird and helper).

Had to do this with my 6 yr old Springer/Lab mix when we adopted a teenage kitten. She wanted to eat that kitten, the kitten was old enough to run, so I knew it was a disaster waiting to happen. Took two days to de-sentsitize her to the kitten with nothing more than a firm "nooo" or "leave it".

Also did this procedure with my older golden when he was 2 with live pigeons. He will still happily fetch a live rooster pheasant and live ducks when the occasion calls for it. But at least he's not a crazy maniac who breaks at the site of live birds.

[mitty]

Jennifer, how is restraining a dog with a leash "purely positive"?

[copterdoc]

Any minute now, someone will be along that has trained a dog beyond the SH level using purely positive methods. And they will be able to tell you how they did it.

Any minute now..............................

























































































Still waiting?

[hotel4dogs]

I agree, he apparently wasn't nearly as steady as I thought he was.
But I come back to the same question....the dog is not motivated by food nor praise when there are live birds. So how would you get him steady, using positive reinforcement, for birds flying close? And then if he breaks, what would you do?
I do really appreciate your replies. The parallel between "has he been properly force fetched" and finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is very interesting.

Definitely being able to teach steadiness/ whistle stop younger helps i think/assume because food is higher reward than retrieves for puppies (at least in my cases). In your question though you have a three year old dog and don't have that advantage. One common thing i see in these threads are folks asking a question of how do you fix this problem. The first and common response is " has the dog been properly force fetched, or the dog was not properly force fetched" because it is the base of the rest of the training. Ususally it is suggested to go back and revisit FF and work up to the point where the problem was. I think one could answer your question with the same but different response of "has the dog been properly steadiness trained". The dog was steady for you in every previous temptation but the jump was too great from wherever he was steady to a flushing bird. Finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is an important part of more positive training. So if the dog was steady with birds flying close then maybe go to a park throw some bread out to get some ducks or pigeons close and tell some kid to run through them or something like that. If i was in your situation i would have tried to find a bridge in the distraction ladder, or maybe i would have got fed up and CC'd my dog

[road kill]

So......you have a dog with big tyme prey drive, doing an upland set up and he gets a running flush.
Are you saying to run him down and put a bird in his mouth will make him sit??

That's what I have been doing wrong!!!


THANKS!!!!!



BTW--This one time, at an UH test, it took 8 freakin' birds to get one he didn't catch, 8!!!!

He even beat the launcher!!!!!!
Had both front paws on it before they could get it launched!

[hotel4dogs]

Thanks Jennifer. Having a live bird in an enclosed area makes sense in getting him steady. I tend to not think in terms of "baby steps" like that, so it's helpful to see it broken down into smaller pieces. Same question comes to mind, though. If he keeps breaking, what would you do? I know the usual response is back up further in steadiness training, but he doesn't break for anything but live birds that he, himself, has flushed.
Again for anyone just joining in, I'm not trying to fix a problem with my CC'd dog, just curious how others would have approached it and learning from their experiences.
Road Kill, I think the bird in mouth idea is for a training set-up. Good Lord, I don't think Polmaise was suggesting I take the boy upland hunting with a bird hanging out of his mouth. And unfortunately, he's pretty good at catching the birds as they flush, too, which is very self-rewarding.

[road kill]

Thanks Jennifer. Having a live bird in an enclosed area makes sense in getting him steady. I tend to not think in terms of "baby steps" like that, so it's helpful to see it broken down into smaller pieces.
Again for anyone just joining in, I'm not trying to fix a problem with my CC'd dog, just curious how others would have approached it and learning from their experiences.
Road Kill, I think the bird in mouth idea is for a training set-up. Good Lord, I don't think Polmaise was suggesting I take the boy upland hunting with a bird hanging out of his mouth.

I didn't mean my post to sound like a smart azz, I kind of meant it as a compliment to your dogs prey drive (which I love in a dog).
I don't think you can condition them to sit on the flush or whistle without "compulsion" or "encouragement" to do so.
I am certain I couldn't with my dog.

It's still iffy on a moving flush!!

Are you going to run HRC upland tests?
If so, awesome time!!

If not, I dare you to!!!!
Find out how well proofed your steady to flush is.

It is an absolute BLAST!!!!!

[hotel4dogs]

Thanks, he does have huge prey drive. We had several real "come to Jesus" meetings between me, him, the e-collar and some live birds to get him where he will stop at the whistle on a flush. I love the prey drive, too.
I do plan to run HRC upland with him. I was going to enter KKK's tests Feb. 9 and 10, but it conflicts with a big agility trial weekend and we are trying to finish his 2 master agility titles. So it will have to wait a while. If you know of any tests nearby later in the year (not the ones end of Feb. in Southern IL) let me know! While he is steady to flush at the hunt club with chukkars, pheasants, and homing pigeons the excitement of a test environment adds another whole dimension to it!

I didn't mean my post to sound like a smart azz, I kind of meant it as a compliment to your dogs prey drive (which I love in a dog).
I don't think you can condition them to sit on the flush or whistle without "compulsion" or "encouragement" to do so.
I am certain I couldn't with my dog.

It's still iffy on a moving flush!!

Are you going to run HRC upland tests?
If so, awesome time!!

If not, I dare you to!!!!
Find out how well proofed your steady to flush is.

It is an absolute BLAST!!!!!