question about positive training

[mudminnow]

I agree, he apparently wasn't nearly as steady as I thought he was.
But I come back to the same question....the dog is not motivated by food nor praise when there are live birds. So how would you get him steady, using positive reinforcement, for birds flying close? And then if he breaks, what would you do?
I do really appreciate your replies. The parallel between "has he been properly force fetched" and finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is very interesting.

ANd like i said i am by no means an expert, i just like to try and solve problems...

I think where you are going here is gettin to the point where folks that say they only do positive reinforcement run into a wall. I would as i said earlier use a check cord that i could step on so the dog could not break. I realize though that at 6'5'' 240 i can stop alot more dog than most ( i speak from experience being married to a 5'2'' 110 wife, telling here to step on the check cord=me sleeping with the dogs that night). That is not purely positive. Also with birds flying around, the dog would be on a lead and when he is not steady, i would remove hime from the situation.

example: bread and ducks at a park. Make dog stay at heel, if he pulls or breaks turn around. The reward is being close to the warm feathery things. The dog learns to buy the reward by staying at heel and being steady.

I won't have a dog that will be a MH, and thats fine. I am not really sold on those tests being the basis of breeding. I think it shows tremendous trainability of a dog to reach that level which is amazing. It just doesn't spark my engine. If I as a husband, father, dentist, flyfisher, and duck misser can train a dog for 5-15 minutes for three times a week and have a dog that is steady and able to perform blind retrieves out to 90 or so yards, i am happy.

[Jennifer Henion]

Jennifer, how is restraining a dog with a leash "purely positive"?

Barb said "or Mostly Positive", so that's where I'm coming from. Among the positive training crowd, there is an acronym: LIMA = Least Intensive Minimally Aversive. Most, if not all pos trainers use a leash. I use "No" and "Leave it". But mainly I train the behavior I want to happen by using baby steps and clearly defining the goal for the dog, then I add the word/command to that trained behavior. After that, if dog is making the wrong decision or needs to be warned not to kill the kitty, I use "no" etc.

As for skunks and porcupines, I live in very rural California, I walk my 3 dogs off leash in the wild every day and we encounter porcupines and skunks and deer and wild cats regularly. My 2 Goldens, who I trained well, can be no'd off them with out a problem. It happens at least once a week. The 9 yr old Berner was not well trained and did get porcupined two years ago.

Edit: I have to know the skunk or Porc is there to prevent an incident. If it's dark or the porc is deep in a bush and I don't realize what the dogs are after, I'm screwed.

[hotel4dogs]

Mudminnow, I don't believe there is any such thing as purely positive training but I didn't want this to turn into that dispute. It's why I said "or mostly positive". I am just looking for other opinions, other ways of doing things which I can then adapt and use in accordance with my own beliefs and training methods.
For example, bread and ducks at a park. No reason at all I can't do the exact same thing with my dog on an e-collar instead of a leash. Either way, it's a good idea of someplace to go work him quickly and easily.
I learn a lot from others, whether or not I agree with them.

[hotel4dogs]

See Jennifer, I think that's a problem that I have in my training. I love immediate gratification. It's hard for me to break down things into baby-steps (which is why I learn under an excellent pro rather than trying to do it on my own!). I want my dog to just go out and DO it. He did in obedience, he did in agility. Field introduces a whole new set of issues and it's very new to me. But it's a blast!

[Ray Kirkpatrick]

were is Miss Molly MiniVan going to get a bird,
to put in Poofie's mouth
afore they walk down the city bike path and flush a bunny?

Tsk, tsk......tee hee....

[mudminnow]

No prob, i wasn't criticizing you , i was just being honest with the fact that i can't do everything with only PR, and thats where i run into the wall.

[hotel4dogs]

I think most good "non-positive" trainers believe that, too. If a little "nick" is going to do the job, I'm not going to blast his head off.

[QUOTE=Jennifer Henion;1058681] there is an acronym: LIMA = Least Intensive Minimally Aversive.

[gdgnyc]

DuckDon, yep, he scared the bejeezes out of me a couple of times, almost got killed once, and I needed a relatively quick fix. It worked.

To Mudminnow....Thanks for the well thought out reply. He was steady. Very. Until he started flushing live birds. I was absolutely floored when he took off the first time.

hotel4dogs, animals have what is called "instinctive drift." No matter how much a behavior is trained, there is always the possibility that the prey drive, the instiinct, may be stronger than the trained behavior.

[hotel4dogs]

gdgnyc, I had to google that and read about it, and I totally get it. It's what we're up against with these guys with big prey drive.

http://www.intropsych.com/ch08_anima...ive_drift.html

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/drift.htm

[gdgnyc]

I agree. After all, the instinct is what has developed for survival. Trained behaviors by us was not part of the equation.