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Thread: question about positive training

  1. #31
    Senior Member EricW's Avatar
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    How is this "purely positive" for the birds?
    "I never let schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Barb I am not opposed to the use of the collar just your application to correct your dog's issue. I sent you a pm. If I had been at the stage you were with your dog and wanted to train I would use Lori Jolly method first to get the dog to retrieve correctly! Then if you felt the dog understood you could move on to Lardy's CC program. I did mention in my pm Lardy has some excellent reading in his booklet that comes with the DVDs on training before CC. Good luck.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
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    They are positive that they'd better get high up fast or they are positively going to get caught

    Quote Originally Posted by EricW View Post
    How is this "purely positive" for the birds?

    Barb Gibson
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    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
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  4. #34
    Senior Member EricW's Avatar
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    LOL. Wild birds are good at that.
    "I never let schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

  5. #35
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    Are there clicker/positive based rattlesnake avoidance classes?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Are there clicker/positive based rattlesnake avoidance classes?
    Bet you could do it. Luckily we don't have those where I live or hunt.

  7. #37
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Barb, you could absolutely get it done with a purely positive method. Not sure how reliable it would be without the ability to make a correction but you absolutely could teach an auto sit response every time he sees a bird he wants to retrieve. If I wanted to do this:

    I would start out playing "two toy" to get him dropping things on command. Then I would lure into a sit position with a bird just like a treat, and roll the bird as a reward. I would keep doing this until he sat at the site/smell of a bird in my hand. I would then get between the dog and the bird and block/keep him in sit until I released him. I would build distance on this until I was a few feet from him and he would sit until released. I would then bring in another person and I would probably go to a flat buckle collar and lead. Have the person tease a little with the bird with the dog standing. The dog should sit, at which point they would throw and you would release. Patience is key. You have to wait silently for the offered behavior before you reward. I would say nothing throughout this process. Let him learn to sit before he get released each and every time.

    It's purely positive until you get to the point where some restraint MAY be required. If you did it thoroughly enough you may never need it or only one or two times.

    Obviously you progress the level of drive and excitement in small increments, from almost nothing (static bird in hand) all the way to shot fliers.

    I have a puppy right now at 8.5 mos old that will, if she's standing, sit at the sight of a thrown bumper, focus and wait for release. I trained this behavior pretty much like I outlined above (I'm clearly not done yet).

    I have trained a bunch of Goldens from 6 mos to 3 years old recently and one common thread in all of them has been that they will offer a behavior to earn a reward very readily. One with higher drive is most prone to doing this. I've had dogs sit, lay down, roll over, give paw and bark, all in sequence, trying to get the treat I'm holding. It's this kind of problem solving you leverage to work a strategy like I outlined.

    Would I do this with a three year old dog? HECK NO. I would do what you did rather than spend 2 months creating a behavior that will only be somewhat reliable in the field with a running flush. I'll go out on a flaming limb and admit that I believe there is a place for a certain amount of fairly applied correction in each and every dog training program. Re-enforcing a stationary command in a high drive situation is certainly a fair and reasonable place to employ it. Especially since sitting steady to shot and flush might save the dog from being accidentally shot.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-22-2013 at 01:23 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Barb, you could absolutely get it done with a purely positive method. Not sure how reliable it would be without the ability to make a correction but you absolutely could teach an auto sit response every time he sees a bird he wants to retrieve. If I wanted to do this:

    I would start out playing "two toy" to get him dropping things on command. Then I would lure into a sit position with a bird just like a treat, and roll the bird as a reward. I would keep doing this until he sat at the site/smell of a bird in my hand. I would then get between the dog and the bird and block/keep him in sit until I released him. I would build distance on this until I was a few feet from him and he would sit until released. I would then bring in another person and I would probably go to a flat buckle collar and lead. Have the person tease a little with the bird with the dog standing. The dog should sit, at which point they would throw and you would release. Patience is key. You have to wait silently for the offered behavior before you reward. I would say nothing throughout this process. Let him learn to sit before he get released each and every time.

    It's purely positive until you get to the point where some restraint MAY be required. If you did it thoroughly enough you may never need it or only one or two times.

    Obviously you progress the level of drive and excitement in small increments, from almost nothing (static bird in hand) all the way to shot fliers.

    I have a puppy right now at 8.5 mos old that will, if she's standing, sit at the sight of a thrown bumper, focus and wait for release. I trained this behavior pretty much like I outlined above (I'm clearly not done yet).

    I have trained a bunch of Goldens from 6 mos to 3 years old recently and one common thread in all of them has been that they will offer a behavior to earn a reward very readily. One with higher drive is most prone to doing this. I've had dogs sit, lay down, roll over, give paw and bark, all in sequence, trying to get the treat I'm holding. It's this kind of problem solving you leverage to work a strategy like I outlined.

    Would I do this with a three year old dog? HECK NO. I would do what you did rather than spend 2 months creating a behavior that will only be somewhat reliable in the field with a running flush. I'll go out on a flaming limb and admit that I believe there is a place for a certain amount of fairly applied correction in each and every dog training program. Re-enforcing a stationary command in a high drive situation is certainly a fair and reasonable place to employ it. Especially since sitting steady to shot and flush might save the dog from being accidentally shot.
    Pointer training books follow more or less the same routine for puppies depending upon which trainers book you just picked up.

  9. #39
    Senior Member duckheads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotel4dogs View Post
    Thanks, he does have huge prey drive. We had several real "come to Jesus" meetings between me, him, the e-collar and some live birds to get him where he will stop at the whistle on a flush. I love the prey drive, too.
    I do plan to run HRC upland with him. I was going to enter KKK's tests Feb. 9 and 10, but it conflicts with a big agility trial weekend and we are trying to finish his 2 master agility titles. So it will have to wait a while. If you know of any tests nearby later in the year (not the ones end of Feb. in Southern IL) let me know! While he is steady to flush at the hunt club with chukkars, pheasants, and homing pigeons the excitement of a test environment adds another whole dimension to it!
    Just so no one gets confused, it's KRHRC not the KKK that will be putting on the test on Feb 9 and 10. LOL!

    Plenty of openings still.

    Sorry I couldn't pass up the opportunity to promote our hunt since I am the hunt chairman!

    Hope to see some RTF'rs there!
    CPR HRCH Scott's Sweet Brandy
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  10. #40
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckheads View Post
    Just so no one gets confused, it's KRHRC not the KKK that will be putting on the test on Feb 9 and 10. LOL!

    Plenty of openings still.

    Sorry I couldn't pass up the opportunity to promote our hunt since I am the hunt chairman!

    Hope to see some RTF'rs there!
    Is it warm there then??

    Maybe we will come and hang out and watch.
    Since I hunted my pup, instead of giving him treats, it's 50/50 or so on steady to flush!!!
    Stan b & Elvis

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