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Thread: Retired marks on water, on land

  1. #11
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    Greta,

    Although this is not a hard and fast rule, for the most part, they will retire the middle bird in a Q. Most of the time, it also will be the longest mark. BUT with that being said, I have seen the middle mark be the shortest (and of course, not the go bird in order for it to be retired). I have also seen them retire the left or right bird, sometimes the longest, and sometimes not.

    So, as you can see, there is really no good solution to say it is always one or the other.

    Howard had a really good post above regarding some other concepts you will want to work on, in relation to retired guns.

    No need to be nervous in the least. There are just a few basic differences between hunt test and Q. One being distance, but at the same time, the Q is given the worst grounds (between Open / AM / Q), so sometimes the distances will be exactly the same as you have seen in a Master test. The second being that you will run a land series of marks first, and then come back to do a land blind separately.

    Some concepts for you to think about for the blind:

    1. running the blind past a gunner from the first series, with gunner sitting out.
    2. running blind past flyer crates, or through flyer scent from first series.

    Good luck. HAVE FUN. It is only you going out and spending some good quality time with your best bud.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    The JAX club trial Q finished with a tough double, long retired gun (225 yds?) across a pond, tight past the go bird. The small pond and long land entry gave plenty of opportunities for dogs to cheat, or bank early and get lost between the marks, or suck back to the fall of the go bird. Of the dozen or so dogs that ran the series only 3 (?) did not handle.
    The weekend before at Treasure Coast the last series of the Q was also a water double, long retired memory bird. Big swim past a point where many dogs got out and got lost.
    Both series took out the cheaty dogs, one with a long entry, the other with a big swim. Both requied pup to swim past some suction. So, there are the concepts we'll be sure to work on this spring.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman View Post
    Howard,

    For a dog that gives in and does, in fact, beach early, would you handle the dog to keep a good line or allow the dog to "learn" from not finding the bird? If you handle, how does the dog know that it's a "correction" albeit a mild one? Maybe a better question would be how do you TEACH the dog to not to give in to the factor, but to stay in the water, cover, etc.?

    Chad

    Just handle to show the dog the correct path...Repeat ,repeat repeat....In the Danny and Judy cd ,Problems and Solutions there is an example of teaching the dog to carry a line ...a line is a line ...marks or blinds...Steve S PS: enjoy the competition ..I sure miss it ...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  4. #14
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Dogs View Post
    The JAX club trial Q finished with a tough double, long retired gun (225 yds?) across a pond, tight past the go bird. The small pond and long land entry gave plenty of opportunities for dogs to cheat, or bank early and get lost between the marks, or suck back to the fall of the go bird. Of the dozen or so dogs that ran the series only 3 (?) did not handle.
    The weekend before at Treasure Coast the last series of the Q was also a water double, long retired memory bird. Big swim past a point where many dogs got out and got lost.
    Both series took out the cheaty dogs, one with a long entry, the other with a big swim. Both requied pup to swim past some suction. So, there are the concepts we'll be sure to work on this spring.
    Okay! I can picture both as concepts. Thank you!
    --Greta Ode
    willing slave to the whims of
    Kerrybrooks Magical Atticus MH
    Coastalight Kiowa Ravenhawk MH

  5. #15
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Just handle to show the dog the correct path...Repeat ,repeat repeat....In the Danny and Judy cd ,Problems and Solutions there is an example of teaching the dog to carry a line ...a line is a line ...marks or blinds...Steve S PS: enjoy the competition ..I sure miss it ...Steve S
    This is going to be the hardest part for me--balancing when to show the line, and when to accept some momentum, and not getting so hung up on deciding that I miss the opportunity to teach. I'm assuming practice, confidence, and some zen will fix this.

    I'm looking forward to the competition! I think it's going to make me a much better handler.
    --Greta Ode
    willing slave to the whims of
    Kerrybrooks Magical Atticus MH
    Coastalight Kiowa Ravenhawk MH

  6. #16
    Member Flying Dutchman's Avatar
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    Thank you, Steve. I know this was Greta's thread, but I have really enjoyed reading and participating. We aren't ready for field trials at all, but the training for it is really helping my dog progress! I appreciate the explanations!
    Chad Miller
    Great Lakes HRC

    HRCH UH Northern Flying Dutchman
    High Times Dutchmans Copper Cooper

    "Wake me up early, be good to my dogs, and teach my children to pray!"
    - John Anderson, "Black Sheep"

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvalab View Post
    This is going to be the hardest part for me--balancing when to show the line, and when to accept some momentum, and not getting so hung up on deciding that I miss the opportunity to teach. I'm assuming practice, confidence, and some zen will fix this.

    I'm looking forward to the competition! I think it's going to make me a much better handler.
    My rule of thumb with a young dog is , If I missed the initial line but the dog is running straight ,I let them carry the line until they deviate...In other words getting the bird is not the issue ..The dog understanding to run straight is ...Don't break the dogs momentum ,it doesn't understand the line is not the correct one,all it knows is to go straight...It sure will and you'll enjoy the trip too...Best wishes...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman View Post
    Thank you, Steve. I know this was Greta's thread, but I have really enjoyed reading and participating. We aren't ready for field trials at all, but the training for it is really helping my dog progress! I appreciate the explanations!
    Any time..Glad you got something out of it....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  9. #19
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman
    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Howard,

    For a dog that gives in and does, in fact, beach early, would you handle the dog to keep a good line or allow the dog to "learn" from not finding the bird? If you handle, how does the dog know that it's a "correction" albeit a mild one? Maybe a better question would be how do you TEACH the dog to not to give in to the factor, but to stay in the water, cover, etc.?

    Chad


    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Just handle to show the dog the correct path...Repeat ,repeat repeat....In the Danny and Judy cd ,Problems and Solutions there is an example of teaching the dog to carry a line ...a line is a line ...marks or blinds...Steve S PS: enjoy the competition ..I sure miss it ...Steve S
    IMO Steve is right with little dogs. You handle for months teaching the concepts that they have to know to become big dogs. But there comes a time with advanced derby dogs and during the dog's Q career that you make the dog responsible for decisions and not make every decision for him. At that time it's training not teaching. True in training you go back and forth teaching then training then teaching again but you are advancing the dog further and further making him responsible for stuff that was new a month(s) ago.

    In general, if you think your dog knows it then make a correction when you handle. If you don't think the dog has had enough repetitions to generalize the concept or the concept is vague in this setup then handle. I try to err on the dog's side and handle without corrections if I have doubt, but I feel that I am doing harm to the dog's training if I don't make the correction when the dog decides to do the wrong thing when he knows what the right decision is.
    Last edited by Howard N; 01-23-2013 at 01:58 PM.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  10. #20
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    So, Howard, in both cases you are going to handle, but if the dog is being lazy (i.e. trying to run around a pond on a long entry after the dog has been decheated), you're going to handle AND CORRECT, but if the dog is still being decheated, or if the dog may not understand the concept, you're more likely to just handle. Does that sound about right?

    Also, am I safe in assuming that you're talking about a sit, "no", nick, cast type of correction?
    Chad Miller
    Great Lakes HRC

    HRCH UH Northern Flying Dutchman
    High Times Dutchmans Copper Cooper

    "Wake me up early, be good to my dogs, and teach my children to pray!"
    - John Anderson, "Black Sheep"

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