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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    This here, is what I was trying to get to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Samsa View Post
    Studies have shown that things which are traditionally thought of as aversive (for example, electric shocks) can be set up in such a way that the introduction of an electric shock can actually increase responding - thus making it, technically, a reinforcer. To simplify the explanation, the electric shocks act as a signal or cue for future events (i.e. the presentation of food), and so they take on a conditioned value which can be used to increase behavior.

    Isn't this the way of the collar use today ..? A reinforcer of a known command ...IE: dog is in route and back nick back ...Stimulation when the dog is doing a command correctly? Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #52
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Samsa View Post
    Studies have shown that things which are traditionally thought of as aversive (for example, electric shocks) can be set up in such a way that the introduction of an electric shock can actually increase responding - thus making it, technically, a reinforcer. To simplify the explanation, the electric shocks act as a signal or cue for future events (i.e. the presentation of food), and so they take on a conditioned value which can be used to increase behavior.

    Isn't this the way of the collar use today ..? A reinforcer of a known command ...IE: dog is in route and back nick back ...Stimulation when the dog is doing a command correctly? Steve S
    Yes.

    But, that doesn't make sense does it?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Yes.

    But, that doesn't make sense does it?
    It does to me ...Isn't it considered a neg reinforcer..? The big question is , How much do we want to use to keep it a reinforcer ..too much and it will become a pos punishment if it stops the behavior..Correct...? Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  4. #54
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    It does to me .....
    Honestly, it does to me too.

    And I think it makes sense to anybody, that understands why we force fetch.
    But, when you try to explain it to somebody that is only thinking Operant Conditioning, they just can't wrap their mind around it.

    It's like a "bridge" to nowhere.

  5. #55
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    ...Isn't it considered a neg reinforcer..?
    I don't think so.
    I think that it serves as Positive Reinforcement.

    At least that's how we use it anyway.

    But, when you get to arguing positive vs negative, as it applies to OC, things get really confusing.

    Here's something that Dennis Voigt posted in the Simplifying Dog Learning Science sticky.
    Positive and negative reinforcement: Should the distinction be preserved?Baron A, Galizio M.
    Abstract

    Michael (1975) reviewed efforts to classify reinforcing events in terms of whether stimuli are added (positive reinforcement) or removed (negative reinforcement). He concluded that distinctions in these terms are confusing and ambiguous. Of necessity, adding a stimulus requires its previous absence and removing a stimulus its previous presence. Moreover, there is no good basis, either behavioral or physiological, that indicates the involvement of distinctly different processes, and on these grounds he proposed that the distinction be abandoned. Despite the cogency of Michael's analysis, the distinction between positive and negative reinforcement is still being taught. In this paper, we reconsider the issue from the perspective of 30 years. However, we could not find new evidence in contemporary research and theory that allows reliable classification of an event as a positive rather than a negative reinforcer. We conclude by reiterating Michael's admonitions about the conceptual confusion created by such a distinction.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I don't think so.
    I think that it serves as Positive Reinforcement.

    At least that's how we use it anyway.

    But, when you get to arguing positive vs negative, as it applies to OC, things get really confusing.

    Here's something that Dennis Voigt posted in the Simplifying Dog Learning Science sticky.
    In order for it to be positive reinforcement it has to be associated as a good thing. I would tend to think that it would be considered Positive Punishment you are adding an deterrent to keep the dog from hunting, popping, going slow ect. It all just depends on how you look at it is FF more of a Negative punishment because you are taking the pressure away once the bumper is in the dogs mouth=grabbing the bumper is more likely.

    Also in order for the stimulation for the E-collar to be considered a good thing you would have to condition the dog to a positive reinforcer before you could use it that way. How are you guys creating this association?

    To make it really easy you need to think of "Negative" as removing something and "Positive" as adding something

    Positive Reinforcement:
    Present something good = behavior is more likely

    Negative Reinforcement:
    Take away something bad = behavior is less likely

    Positive Punishment:
    Present something bad = behavior is less likely

    Negative Punishment:
    Take away something good = behavior is more likely
    Last edited by Jon Couch; 01-24-2013 at 06:40 PM.
    Jon Couch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Couch View Post
    In order for it to be positive reinforcement it has to be associated as a good thing.
    Why?

    If it's something that I add, it's positive.
    If it increases the desired behavior, it was reinforcement.

    There is nothing in Operant Conditioning, that says a dog has to "like" it.
    Just because a dog "likes" a reward, doesn't mean that I can't punish behavior with a biscuit.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Why?

    If it's something that I add, it's positive.
    If it increases the desired behavior, it was reinforcement.

    There is nothing in Operant Conditioning, that says a dog has to "like" it.
    Just because a dog "likes" a reward, doesn't mean that I can't punish behavior with a biscuit.
    As far as I understand it you add something it is positive but is it positive reinforcement or positive punishment both are adding one good and one bad!
    FF to me would be considered Negative Punishment which is to take away something bad to make a behavior more likely (ear pinch= bad take bumper into your mouth removes the bad stimulant thus making taking the bumper behavior more likely). Also you are assuming that the addition of the stimulus is increasing the behavior, but could it be said that adding the bad stimulus is in fact making the wrong behavior less likely (I give a left over and dog goes back I add a bad stimulus to make the back reaction less likely or the dog is sent on a blind and starts to break down and I add a back nick back which in turn makes the breaking down on a blind less likely because adding a bad makes a behavior less likely)

    How would you punish with food? Dogs are hard wired to eat I think you would have a hard time convincing a dog that food is bad thing.
    Last edited by Jon Couch; 01-24-2013 at 06:59 PM.
    Jon Couch
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    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I don't think so.
    I think that it serves as Positive Reinforcement.

    At least that's how we use it anyway.

    But, when you get to arguing positive vs negative, as it applies to OC, things get really confusing.

    Here's something that Dennis Voigt posted in the Simplifying Dog Learning Science sticky.
    To begin with I agree with the notion of being very confusing when we try to describe things in verbal fashion....This is how I understand the 4 quadrants Pos reinforcement ='s a reward ( treat ,happy bumper) Pos punishment ='s give a correction ( dog jumps up smack on the head ...avoidance teaching ) Neg reinforcement ='s escape training ,ear pinched dog opens mouth .....Neg punishment ='s reward with held ( dog in sit position , food pan placed on floor ,dog moves ,food pan picked up ) a verbal no but no punishment administered....

    It really doesn't matter how we use it ...It's important how the dog understands or how they associate it with the behavior going on at the time of the stimulation... I was taught to always repeat the rep after a stimulation (without pressure) to see the effects of that stimulation...In other words did the dog make the correct association ....OR ..did we have a failure to communicate...I also agree with your thoughts that both CC and OC go hand in hand toward a final out come... Good discussion and food for thought... Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Why?

    If it's something that I add, it's positive.
    If it increases the desired behavior, it was reinforcement.

    There is nothing in Operant Conditioning, that says a dog has to "like" it.
    Just because a dog "likes" a reward, doesn't mean that I can't punish behavior with a biscuit.
    Your take on this is sounding more and more like sadomasochism.

    In force to pile or force fetch or force to water, the force is not used so the dog will like it, right? Isn't it used to convey: "you're not going fast enough, you must get there now" and in order to escape this electronic pulse, you must go and get there now? Thus creating a fast response to escape the nick/burn or stick on your ass. So, if my thinking on this is right, the nick/burn used in force training is not an indicator that dog is about to be rewarded with a retrieve, it's to say:you're going to get burned until you escape it by doing this drill and show a compulsion to get to the pile or water. Right?

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