Skinner vs Pavlov

[DarrinGreene]

Darrin, I think it's you that is entrenched in emotion, given the nature of your reply. I was responding to a statement Copterdoc made about a high stimulus from an ecollar being trained to be a pleasurable thing to the dog. That statement was wrapped in the discussion about what force training is. Force training is escape training, no? I didn't say anything about screaming, jumping or wailing. Nor did I say force training was bad or cruel. It works, I know. You can do it soft and not hurt anyone, I know. What I was writing about was Copterdoc saying you could train a dog to see a high burn as pleasure.

The only emotion that struck me when I read your reply was one of happiness. I laughed pretty hard.

[7pntail]

Read through most of the pages, and decided you all have some anal retention issues. Did you forget about Freud? Perhaps there are some Id, ego, and super ego's in place here.

Nice thread, and good discussion---no psychoanalysis intended.

[steve schreiner]

It's impossible to not apply indirect pressure, when you press the button and directly reinforce a conditioned response.

The question is, what did the dog associate that indirect pressure with?
Was it the cast refusal that it just gave you?
Was it the bank that it just beached on?
Was it the bird boy, that he was heading towards?

We have to be careful.
Even though the pressure we are using to punish is indirect, it can still punish the wrong thing.

This point I have to disagree on ...If the dog just went the wrong direction and you stop on a sit with pressure, The dog should associate the pressure with the sit, I don't think they have those kind of discernment skills to put it together with a cast refusal...Just like yelling NO,sit and recast the dog should associate the NO with the cast though....not the sit....Steve S

[copterdoc]

.....In force to pile or force fetch or force to water, the force is not used so the dog will like it, right?

No, the dog can't like it.

Isn't it used to convey: "you're not going fast enough, you must get there now" and in order to escape this electronic pulse, you must go and get there now? Thus creating a fast response to escape the nick/burn or stick on your ass.

Not exactly. You think that every training sequence is done only for the immediate result of changing behavior in the "now".

However, the objective of processes like FF and Collar Conditioning, is not to change the dog's behavior. It's to change the dog's understanding of pressure.

It's about giving the aversive stimulus meaning. To allow the pressure itself, to have specific meaning to the dog.
We use Operant Conditioning to explain to the dog what the stimulus means.

As it learns what it means, the dog forms an association between the pressure, and the action. That association becomes conditioned (classically) so that the dog actually responds to the pressure, by performing the behavior.

We aren't after the behavior. We want the conditioned association with the pressure.

... So, if my thinking on this is right, the nick/burn used in force training is not an indicator that dog is about to be rewarded with a retrieve, it's to say:you're going to get burned until you escape it by doing this drill and show a compulsion to get to the pile or water. Right?

No.

We only use Operant Conditioning, to get the classically conditioned response to the pressure. Once we have that, the same rules of escape and avoidance do not need to apply to aversives, in every instance.

Prior to this change, pressure can ONLY punish.
If pressure can only punish, we can't reinforce with pressure.

[steve schreiner]

That's part of it.

That does allow the collar to be used as positive reinforcement for sitting to the whistle.
However, you can't forget that when you apply reinforcement using collar pressure, you are ALWAYS applying indirect pressure at the same time.

We can't afford to punish the act of fetching, with indirect pressure.
So, before we can safely apply positive reinforcement on sit with the e-collar in the field, we need to have also conditioned the dog to fetch in response to collar pressure.

In all my years of dog training I have never FF a dog with the collar ....so ...my dog should have problems when I blow a sit whistle at the pile just before the pickup signal is given...Steve S

[copterdoc]

This point I have to disagree on ...If the dog just went the wrong direction and you stop on a sit with pressure, The dog should associate the pressure with the sit, I don't think they have those kind of discernment skills to put it together with a cast refusal...Just like yelling NO,sit and recast the dog should associate the NO with the cast though....not the sit....Steve S

The pressure MEANS sit. We have already conditioned it to.

If the pressure means sit, the pressure doesn't punish sit.
The pressure punishes something else. Like where the dog was, or what it was doing immediately before being "told" to sit with applied pressure.

[copterdoc]

In all my years of dog training I have never FF a dog with the collar ....so ...my dog should have problems when I blow a sit whistle at the pile just before the pickup signal is given...Steve S

You've never forced to a pile?

[steve schreiner]

You've never forced to a pile?

Not on the command fetch ...On back ......I never say fetch stimulate fetch ....to a pile or to a single bumper ....stop , go , come ...a lot ....Steve S

[steve schreiner]

The pressure MEANS sit. We have already conditioned it to.

If the pressure means sit, the pressure doesn't punish sit.
The pressure punishes something else. Like where the dog was, or what it was doing immediately before being "told" to sit with applied pressure.

It reinforces sit not punish some other behavior ...This is where it is so important to make the correct association with pressure ...Steve S

[copterdoc]

Not on the command fetch ...On back ......I never say fetch stimulate fetch ....to a pile or to a single bumper ....stop , go , come ...a lot ....Steve S

It doesn't really matter what word you use.

When you force to a pile, you are "saying" fetch with the e-collar. The dog might not understand it at first. But you can adjust your timing, so that you can apply the pressure as P+ and R- until the dog establishes the association and the response is conditioned.