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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #161
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Dude, I'm on the same soil and I don't get it. So don't feel bad!
    Thanks Chris, I don't feel bad, But a grey mist comes down ,when I read all that jargon?..much in the way that 'Clicker Trainers' ram stuff down yer neck like they have invented the wheel ! with 'words and phrases' that are probably alien to most dog trainers . It's not that I don't want to listen to them!..But my head just says'>>>
    'Say it like it is man'! It's a bloody dug for god's sake! ...I run many training classes for obedience (pet owners), and usually the more academically intelligent the owner is! ,the worst handler they are! (ime) ..They often look for e=mc2 ?, when really it's just a + or - !
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Steve I don't ever nick or burn a dog whose ass is already on the ground. That serves no purpose I know of.
    Nick/burn on sit is either avoid a nick or escape a burn. The dog is out of position then the pressure is applied, even in the case of indirect pressure.
    Run us through an example of when(at what point) you nick in an IP for a CR scenario.

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  3. #163
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Dude, I'm on the same soil and I don't get it. So don't feel bad!

    You do too understand it, both of u! I only learned to talk the talk because I occasionally get cornered by a vet or some other "educated" person who wants to test me.
    Darrin Greene

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Steve I don't ever nick or burn a dog whose ass is already on the ground. That serves no purpose I know of.
    Nick/burn on sit is either avoid a nick or escape a burn. The dog is out of position then the pressure is applied, even in the case of indirect pressure. The way it's timed the last behavior the dog did just before the pressure is moving, so that is punished and the next behavior (sitting) in re-enforced.
    Sounds a lot like punishment training to me ....just my opinion ...If it works for you good ...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #165
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Sounds a lot like punishment training to me ....just my opinion ...If it works for you good ...Steve S
    There is no such thing as "punishment training" or "reinforcement training"

    ALL training involves both punishment, and reinforcement, at the same time.

    We just need to make sure that what we reinforce, is what we want to reinforce.
    And what we punish, is what we want to punish.

  6. #166
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Thanks Chris, I don't feel bad, But a grey mist comes down ,when I read all that jargon?..much in the way that 'Clicker Trainers' ram stuff down yer neck like they have invented the wheel ! with 'words and phrases' that are probably alien to most dog trainers . It's not that I don't want to listen to them!..But my head just says'>>>
    'Say it like it is man'! It's a bloody dug for god's sake! ...I run many training classes for obedience (pet owners), and usually the more academically intelligent the owner is! ,the worst handler they are! (ime) ..They often look for e=mc2 ?, when really it's just a + or - !
    This thread takes it beyond E=MC2 to me. No grey fog. No gray fog. No fog. It just pops a circuit breaker here and it all goes dark..... When the power comes back on, the clocks are flashing and need to be reset.

    I don't have time to reset clocks.

    Chris

  7. #167
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Run us through an example of when(at what point) you nick in an IP for a CR scenario.

    john
    You have no chance of engaging me in that discussion for the sake of your entertainment.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    You have no chance of engaging me in that discussion for the sake of your entertainment.
    You have already stated when you would not nick during IP, what is unclear is when you would .........or if you use IP at all ?

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  9. #169
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    You have already stated when you would not nick during IP, what is unclear is when you would .........or if you use IP at all ?

    john
    That's not what I said John. I said when you use IP and perform sit nick sit, the dog is still in motion when the is delivered, thus punishing motion and re-enforcing sit, with the side benefit of a little religion on the next cast.

    To answer your question, I have been taught some new ways to train and I doubt you'll see much IP from me in a CR situation.
    Darrin Greene

  10. #170
    Senior Member Sabireley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    That's not what I said John. I said when you use IP and perform sit nick sit, the dog is still in motion when the is delivered, thus punishing motion and re-enforcing sit, with the side benefit of a little religion on the next cast.

    To answer your question, I have been taught some new ways to train and I doubt you'll see much IP from me in a CR situation.
    You have piqued my interest in how you would handle a CR situation. I am not baiting you, but am interested.

    This is what I would do... For a CR, in most cases I would toot-sit-same cast. If I got a second CR with an experienced dog, and I thought the dog was not giving me effort, I would recall a few yards with pressure , sit and recast. In some circumstances I might just use attrition before collar pressure. It depends on the dog's tendencies and what is happening at the moment.

    With a young dog on the second CR I would recall a few yards with no pressure and recast. If I got another I might walk out part way and recast with a helpful cast. At this point, if I get direction change I will let the dog roll and enjoy the cast. If I don't, I might walk even closer and cast again. I might recall with pressure if the dog is not giving effort. I am more interested in building momentum than casting perfectly with a youngster.
    Steve

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