Skinner vs Pavlov

[polmaise]

Dude, I'm on the same soil and I don't get it. So don't feel bad!

Thanks Chris, I don't feel bad, But a grey mist comes down ,when I read all that jargon?..much in the way that 'Clicker Trainers' ram stuff down yer neck like they have invented the wheel ! with 'words and phrases' that are probably alien to most dog trainers . It's not that I don't want to listen to them!..But my head just says'>>>
'Say it like it is man'! It's a bloody dug for god's sake! ...I run many training classes for obedience (pet owners), and usually the more academically intelligent the owner is! ,the worst handler they are! (ime) ..They often look for e=mc2 ?, when really it's just a + or - !

[john fallon]

Steve I don't ever nick or burn a dog whose ass is already on the ground. That serves no purpose I know of.
Nick/burn on sit is either avoid a nick or escape a burn. The dog is out of position then the pressure is applied, even in the case of indirect pressure.

Run us through an example of when(at what point) you nick in an IP for a CR scenario.

john

[DarrinGreene]

Dude, I'm on the same soil and I don't get it. So don't feel bad!

You do too understand it, both of u! I only learned to talk the talk because I occasionally get cornered by a vet or some other "educated" person who wants to test me.

[steve schreiner]

Steve I don't ever nick or burn a dog whose ass is already on the ground. That serves no purpose I know of.
Nick/burn on sit is either avoid a nick or escape a burn. The dog is out of position then the pressure is applied, even in the case of indirect pressure. The way it's timed the last behavior the dog did just before the pressure is moving, so that is punished and the next behavior (sitting) in re-enforced.

Sounds a lot like punishment training to me ....just my opinion ...If it works for you good ...Steve S

[copterdoc]

Sounds a lot like punishment training to me ....just my opinion ...If it works for you good ...Steve S

There is no such thing as "punishment training" or "reinforcement training"

ALL training involves both punishment, and reinforcement, at the same time.

We just need to make sure that what we reinforce, is what we want to reinforce.
And what we punish, is what we want to punish.

[Chris Atkinson]

Thanks Chris, I don't feel bad, But a grey mist comes down ,when I read all that jargon?..much in the way that 'Clicker Trainers' ram stuff down yer neck like they have invented the wheel ! with 'words and phrases' that are probably alien to most dog trainers . It's not that I don't want to listen to them!..But my head just says'>>>
'Say it like it is man'! It's a bloody dug for god's sake! ...I run many training classes for obedience (pet owners), and usually the more academically intelligent the owner is! ,the worst handler they are! (ime) ..They often look for e=mc2 ?, when really it's just a + or - !

This thread takes it beyond E=MC2 to me. No grey fog. No gray fog. No fog. It just pops a circuit breaker here and it all goes dark..... When the power comes back on, the clocks are flashing and need to be reset.

I don't have time to reset clocks.

Chris

[DarrinGreene]

Run us through an example of when(at what point) you nick in an IP for a CR scenario.

john

You have no chance of engaging me in that discussion for the sake of your entertainment.

[john fallon]

You have no chance of engaging me in that discussion for the sake of your entertainment.

You have already stated when you would not nick during IP, what is unclear is when you would .........or if you use IP at all ?

john

[DarrinGreene]

You have already stated when you would not nick during IP, what is unclear is when you would .........or if you use IP at all ?

john

That's not what I said John. I said when you use IP and perform sit nick sit, the dog is still in motion when the is delivered, thus punishing motion and re-enforcing sit, with the side benefit of a little religion on the next cast.

To answer your question, I have been taught some new ways to train and I doubt you'll see much IP from me in a CR situation.

[Sabireley]

That's not what I said John. I said when you use IP and perform sit nick sit, the dog is still in motion when the is delivered, thus punishing motion and re-enforcing sit, with the side benefit of a little religion on the next cast.

To answer your question, I have been taught some new ways to train and I doubt you'll see much IP from me in a CR situation.

You have piqued my interest in how you would handle a CR situation. I am not baiting you, but am interested.

This is what I would do... For a CR, in most cases I would toot-sit-same cast. If I got a second CR with an experienced dog, and I thought the dog was not giving me effort, I would recall a few yards with pressure , sit and recast. In some circumstances I might just use attrition before collar pressure. It depends on the dog's tendencies and what is happening at the moment.

With a young dog on the second CR I would recall a few yards with no pressure and recast. If I got another I might walk out part way and recast with a helpful cast. At this point, if I get direction change I will let the dog roll and enjoy the cast. If I don't, I might walk even closer and cast again. I might recall with pressure if the dog is not giving effort. I am more interested in building momentum than casting perfectly with a youngster.
Steve