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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #171
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    .....If I got a second CR with an experienced dog, and I thought the dog was not giving me effort, I would recall a few yards with pressure , sit and recast.
    In this example, I believe that you are applying I/P on the command HERE, by creating a hotspot in the direction that the dog wanted to go.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Sure miss uncle Jerry. He could explain this no problem

    /paul
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  3. #173
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    "Whistle sits re-enforced with pressure always has a moment where we +p running and -r sitting. "


    As in the case of a dog already in a sit position or in the process of sitting and pressure is applied ( as talked about in the use of indirect pressure to get the next command ) where is the +p ? If you only stimulate ( to reinforce ) while the dog is doing a command correctly where is the +p ? Heel ,dog in motion pressure ...back dog in motion ...Improper use of the collar scares me a lot...With out proper training in its use it can and will cause more problems than can be fixed ....Steve S
    The +P is in the fact that it's an aversive influence. As far as "where" it is, that's determined by the dog.

    We can "steer" the punishment to what we want to punish, by timing, situation, communication, etc. But, ultimately the dog decides "where" the +P "went". And we can't tell where that was, until we recognize the change in behavior.


    The fact remains, that when you apply an aversive, there is ALWAYS punishment applied to something.

  4. #174
    Senior Member Sabireley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    In this example, I believe that you are applying I/P on the command HERE, by creating a hotspot in the direction that the dog wanted to go.
    I agree on the IP to Here, however, I don't see the same behavior I see when they think there is a hot spot during FTP or TT, ie; avoiding the location of the last direct pressure. On the sit after the recall, the dog is looking back eagerly waiting for the next cast. On the next cast, hope the dog is trying something else it knows rather than simply avoiding a hot spot.
    Last edited by Sabireley; 01-26-2013 at 05:57 PM.

  5. #175
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    ....hope the dog is trying something else it knows rather than simply avoiding a hot spot.
    Here's a test you can try.

    See if you can get the dog to go back through the same spot you burned it from.

  6. #176
    Senior Member Sabireley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Here's a test you can try.

    See if you can get the dog to go back through the same spot you burned it from.
    I guess it depends on how much pressure you use. More than once I have gotten the same CR. I am trying to communicate no, let's try again, with just enough pressure to get a change in behavior. In the case of a CR on a long angle entry,the dog is choosing to not get in when it has been trained to and has done it correctly many times. It's cold or windy, or there is a PB lying up on the bank. I don't believe I have created a hot spot on the bank by correcting the dog for a CR and not getting in. I have corrected the dog for non-compliance ( lack of effort) to a known command. Taking the correct cast and allowing the dog to carry it for sometime reinforces the desired behavior.

    I could try to anticipate the instant the dog makes the decision to not get in. It could be on the line, or in route. Rather than give the dog a freebee cast, I could stop, correct while the sit is in progress, then cast. Or, call back with or without pressure and resend.

    I will add that in the past I have created hot spots the dog learned to avoid. That does not always work so well when you try to generalize the behavior to new locations. I ended up with a dog out of balance to the watery side.

    I try to give the dog the benefit of the doubt and err on the side of no pressure if I am not sure. Learning as I go...
    Last edited by Sabireley; 01-26-2013 at 07:21 PM.

  7. #177
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Testing Dogs and 'Trialling' Dogs are two different things (in my world)!...Maybe that IS! the difference between Pavlov and Skinner?...and a few more besides?
    I'm off' you guy's now,and leave you to your 'games'!...Shame!...
    ..............
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  8. #178
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    I guess it depends on how much pressure you use. More than once I have gotten the same CR.
    It definitely depends on how much pressure you use. If it's not enough to change the behavior, it's not effective at changing behavior.

    I'd say that if you got the same cast refusal, it wasn't effective at changing the behavior that you were trying to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    I am trying to communicate no, let's try again, with just enough pressure to get a change in behavior.
    I'd hope that's what we all are shooting for!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    In the case of a CR on a long angle entry,the dog is choosing to not get in when it has been trained to and has done it correctly many times. It's cold or windy, or there is a PB lying up on the bank. I don't believe I have created a hot spot on the bank by correcting the dog for a CR and not getting in. I have corrected the dog for non-compliance ( lack of effort) to a known command.
    You are correcting for what you read as a lack of effort. But, it's not for lack of effort to a known command.

    If there was a "don't cheat" command, we could apply direct pressure to reinforce that. And I'm sure that we would all love to be able to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    Taking the correct cast and allowing the dog to carry it for sometime reinforces the desired behavior.
    I agree with that. By the time a dog is that advanced, success is extremely rewarding to the dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    I could try to anticipate the instant the dog makes the decision to not get in. It could be on the line, or in route. Rather than give the dog a freebee cast, I could stop, correct while the sit is in progress, then cast. Or, call back with or without pressure and resend.
    If you make it black and white to the dog what is right, and what is wrong, it's extremely likely that it will understand an indirect pressure correction, as what you want the dog to understand it as.
    Even if you accomplish that by making "hotspots" with I/P.
    As long as the dog eventually generalizes it as meaning "the shoreline over there is hot", and that thinking results in the dog being "right", you have achieved the trained behavior that you desire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    I will add that in the past I have created hot spots the dog learned to avoid. That does not always work so well when you try to generalize the behavior to new locations. I ended up with a dog out of balance to the watery side.
    And that's the downside. The criteria the dog is using to decide what to do, is not really the right criteria. If you design a test that the dog beats by avoiding shoreline, it wins. If you don't, it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    I try to give the dog the benefit of the doubt and err on the side of no pressure if I am not sure. Learning as I go...
    I think that's the way that we have to train. When it comes to applying pressure, the results are long lasting. Both the good ones, and the bad ones.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 01-26-2013 at 07:56 PM.

  9. #179
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    @ Steve B. Hi! All I am referring to there in terms of "new methods" is that I'm now of the mindset to avoid collar pressure in all but the most clear cut situations. Go/stop/come, for instance. As you mentioned, sometimes pressure can be interpreted incorrectly, thus, I would rather avoid it unless I'm pretty sure the dog is going to understand it 100%.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-28-2013 at 09:10 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    @ Steve B. Hi! All I am referring to there in terms of "new methods" is that I'm now of the mindset to avoid collar pressure in all but the most clear cut situations. Go/stop/come, for instance. As you mentioned, sometimes pressure can be interpreted incorrectly, thus, I would rather avoid it unless I'm pretty sure the dog is going to understand it 100%.


    Very good ..Welcome aboard....Your " new method " is what I have been doing since the 70's...Steve S ...
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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