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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #191
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Dogs can be conditioned to respond a certain way in a certain context with the push of a button without a command or cue. When a dog is made responsible for a specific behavior and that behavior fails on cue with the context,,, a well conditioned dog will do what is needed to be done ,,,silently,,,with only stimulous to cause him to do the correct behavior
    Pete
    That's true.

    When a dog knows sit-to-flush, and a bird gets up, it can be held to a high enough standard that sit is enforceable with the collar, without the command being given.

  2. #192
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    Dogs can be conditioned to respond a certain way in a certain context with the push of a button without a command or cue. When a dog is made responsible for a specific behavior and that behavior fails on cue with the context,,, a well conditioned dog will do what is needed to be done ,,,silently,,,with only stimulous to cause him to do the correct behavior
    Pete

    When a dog knows sit-to-flush, and a bird gets up, it can be held to a high enough standard that sit is enforceable with the collar, without the command being given. copterdoc..

    If the dog associated the bird flush with the stimulation in a positive manner it works ...but,if in a negative manner you get a dog that is bird shy now...Just as a dog can be conditioned to sit on a call or shot...the correct association is a must to have the proper out come....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  3. #193
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    If the dog associated the bird flush with the stimulation in a positive manner it works ...but,if in a negative manner you get a dog that is bird shy now...Just as a dog can be conditioned to sit on a call or shot...the correct association is a must to have the proper out come....Steve S
    It's called chaining.

    If the dog knows that "B" predicts "A", and is conditioned to perform an action in response to "B" in preparation for "A", we can then condition another link in the chain.

    So, we can create a new "C", that predicts "B", and have the dog perform the same behavior that it was conditioned to perform in preparation for "A".

    That's all Classical Conditioning.

    And it's how we condition a complete retrieve, from a series of conditioned behaviors.
    We condition them all separately, and then each one "commands" the next in sequence.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    It's called chaining.

    If the dog knows that "B" predicts "A", and is conditioned to perform an action in response to "B" in preparation for "A", we can then condition another link in the chain.

    So, we can create a new "C", that predicts "B", and have the dog perform the same behavior that it was conditioned to perform in preparation for "A".

    That's all Classical Conditioning.

    And it's how we condition a complete retrieve, from a series of conditioned behaviors.
    We condition them all separately, and then each one "commands" the next in sequence.
    I have noticed when my dogs start chaining they want skip the in between behaviors and go straight to the end link...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #195
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I have noticed when my dogs start chaining they want skip the in between behaviors and go straight to the end link...Steve S
    It might happen really fast, but there's no "link skipping" going on. Each link predicts the next.

  6. #196
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    That's how we use the collar to shape future behavior.

    Collar conditioning, is not about shaping behavior.
    It's about conditioning responses, to the specific aversive used.

    The dog is already performing the behaviors, in response to the commands, prior to starting collar conditioning.
    But, it won't respond correctly to the pressure applied by the collar, until it is classically conditioned to.
    I'm not sure I believe this definition.

    I have classically conditioned to stim before, in the instance of counter surfing or dumpster diving, but I don't think you're classically conditioning during CC.

    In that case I think the dog is already classically conditioned, meaning he understands the cue/response/re-enforcement relationship. In CC I think you're simply introducing a new re-enforcer to the equation, that being escape or avoidance.

    In fact it's pretty standard than unless classic conditioning is already in place, we don't apply e-collar pressure.

    As I mentioned, I have taken advantage of suspicious behavior in some instances to classically condition a dog NOT to do a certain action, but that is quite a different case than collar conditioning to a known (classically conditioned) behavior.
    Darrin Greene

  7. #197
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I have noticed when my dogs start chaining they want skip the in between behaviors and go straight to the end link...Steve S
    Actually that's quite true and different than what copterdoc is talking about.

    Your dog learns any number of things by skipping links in a chain. Sit to the whistle is perhaps the easiest one to understand.

    We start by luring as a puppy, hand movement precedes behavior which precedes reward.

    When then build to verbal command, hand movement, behavior, reward. Then whistle, verbal, hand, behavior, reward.

    In the end we get whistle = behavior, effectively skipping the verbal and the hand movement.

    This is the theory I use in teaching pet dog folks how to get fifi to sit, down etc...
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-29-2013 at 04:11 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    That's true.

    When a dog knows sit-to-flush, and a bird gets up, it can be held to a high enough standard that sit is enforceable with the collar, without the command being given.
    Yes, the cue for a given behavior need not be a verbal or hand command, it may not even come from a human, and it is still re-enforceable.
    Darrin Greene

  9. #199
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    ...In CC I think you're simply introducing a new re-enforcer to the equation,....
    How is that different, than classically conditioning a secondary reinforcer, like the clicker?

    Doesn't the dog need to make an association, on the same "level"?

  10. #200
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    How is that different, than classically conditioning a secondary reinforcer, like the clicker?

    Doesn't the dog need to make an association, on the same "level"?
    I have to think about that one. The application of pressure precedes the behavior and the marker comes after. They don't seem to be the same thing to me.
    Darrin Greene

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