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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #201
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    ....They don't seem to be the same thing to me.
    I agree. They aren't the same thing.

    But, during Collar Conditioning, something changes with how the dog understands it.
    It's not just a matter of trying to escape or avoid it. They learn that they know HOW to escape or avoid it.

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  3. #202
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Difference is !
    Ivan Pavlov never had a collar.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  4. #203
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    After 21 pages this thread is starting to http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAVKG0I6XXA
    Bill Davis

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  6. #204
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Actually Bill when we start to talk about the similarity or difference between a marker and negative re-enforcement, it's a completely different discussion.
    Darrin Greene

  7. #205
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I agree. They aren't the same thing.

    But, during Collar Conditioning, something changes with how the dog understands it.
    It's not just a matter of trying to escape or avoid it. They learn that they know HOW to escape or avoid it.
    I don't know if I agree with a dog's ability to reason like that either but doesn't really matter.

    You're right, there's definitely an association. Turning of the pressure would be the same as the food/toy on the other side of the equation.

    I suppose the marker is just a step in the chain that happens to be missing when we use -r.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #206
    Senior Member Sabireley's Avatar
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    Along the same lines, you should be able to condition an association between a collar correction and a particular whistle tone or trill through consistent application. Once the association is made you should be able to maintain it with intermittent application of the collar and associated whistle tone. Ultimately, you should be able to get the desired response from just the conditioned whistle tone in situations where the dog does not have the collar on. I am sure people do this already but I do not consciously make it part of my training program. I do use whistle modulation to communicate with the dog.

  9. #207
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    Along the same lines, you should be able to condition an association between a collar correction and a particular whistle tone or trill through consistent application. Once the association is made you should be able to maintain it with intermittent application of the collar and associated whistle tone. Ultimately, you should be able to get the desired response from just the conditioned whistle tone in situations where the dog does not have the collar on. I am sure people do this already but I do not consciously make it part of my training program. I do use whistle modulation to communicate with the dog.
    It would be nice to have a whistle tone/tune for telling the dog to get in the water at distance. Wonder if the judges would balk at that...
    ​"Power is of two kinds. One is obtained through the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent than the one derived from fear of punishment." Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #208
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    It would be nice to have a whistle tone/tune for telling the dog to get in the water at distance. Wonder if the judges would balk at that...
    No one would balk but they would consider it a cast, so if it were on a mark, you would get marked down, possibly dropped in some stakes.
    Darrin Greene

  11. #209
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    [QUOTEThat's true.

    When a dog knows sit-to-flush, and a bird gets up, it can be held to a high enough standard that sit is enforceable with the collar, without the command being given.][/QUOTE]

    Dog sampling a pile of birds on a blind. Push button ---dog returns
    Dog drops bird on his way back from retrieve,,dog is screwing around---push button dog picks up bird and straightens his act out.
    Dog returns after retrieve--- handler starts BSing-- dog veers off because of handlers lack of focus-handler wakes up-- handle rpushes button---dog returns to heel
    Dog rolls bird in mouth--handler pushes button---dog stops rolling

    It works for any well conditioned response in context
    Ephesians 6:12
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Psalms 12: 8
    The wicked walk on every side when the vilest men are exulted


    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

  12. #210
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    No one would balk but they would consider it a cast, so if it were on a mark, you would get marked down, possibly dropped in some stakes.
    Good point.
    ​"Power is of two kinds. One is obtained through the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent than the one derived from fear of punishment." Mahatma Gandhi

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