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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #111
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Here is a short introduction to the E-Collar by Michael Ellis. In it he discusses how the collar lends itself to superstitious associations if not properly introduce. I though it was worth the watch and pertained to this discussion some what.

    http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_properuse.htm
    Jon Couch
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    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

  2. #112
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwickLabs View Post
    Are punishing, extinguishing, distracting, re-focusing and/or becoming more responsive all the same thing?
    The words mean to you, what you make them mean.

    But what they mean to you, doesn't help me understand what you are trying to say.
    You can make it work for you, but you can't communicate to me how you make it work, because I have no idea what you mean.


    If nothing else, studying theories like OC and CC, allows us to standardize at least some of the definitions, and effectively communicate with others that are also familiar with those standardized definitions.


    Now, if you are actually thinking about fire extinguishers, plus peas, and minus arghs while you are working a dog, you are going to be way behind the ball, with every swing you take!

    But, when you have time to sit down and really think this stuff through, it helps you be able to form training plans that make sense, and are effective.

  3. #113
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    copterdoc said:
    The words mean to you, what you make them mean.

    But what they mean to you, doesn't help me understand what you are trying to say.
    You can make it work for you, but you can't communicate to me how you make it work, because I have no idea what you mean.

    If nothing else, studying theories like OC and CC, allows us to standardize at least some of the definitions, and effectively communicate with others that are also familiar with those standardized definitions.


    Now, if you are actually thinking about fire extinguishers, plus peas, and minus arghs while you are working a dog, you are going to be way behind the ball, with every swing you take!

    But, when you have time to sit down and really think this stuff through, it helps you be able to form training plans that make sense, and are effective.
    That's kind of the response I expected. Thanks.
    Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
    MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
    HR Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
    Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
    HR Kwick Draw McGraw SH (June, 2007 - May, 2014)

  4. #114
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Here is another Michael Ellis video that is part of a lecture on OC and also talks about how an e-collar can play into all of this. It also helped me understand some of the things that Copterdoc has stated. If you are interested it is worth a watch.

    http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_opperantcondit.htm
    Jon Couch
    Duck Creek Kennels
    Allegan, MI

    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    m

    You are describing superstitious behavior in your flaring example. The dog accidentally associates the aversive with the place rather than the command. Also might be a good reason not to use an aversive next to other dogs or people. (I found out the hard way.)
    I agree on this point....That is the job of the handler to make communications clear...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  6. #116
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I agree on this point....That is the job of the handler to make communications clear...Steve S
    But, the thing that you need to realize, is that an indirect pressure correction RELIES on superstitious behavior!

    We are using it, to punish an undesirable behavior.

    The only difference between a behavior change following an indirect pressure correction, and superstitious behavior is that one just happened to be what we wanted to change, and the other we didn't mean to!

  7. #117
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Couch View Post
    Here is a short introduction to the E-Collar by Michael Ellis. In it he discusses how the collar lends itself to superstitious associations if not properly introduce. I though it was worth the watch and pertained to this discussion some what.

    http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_properuse.htm
    I don't care about Pavlov vs Skinner, I don't know exactly what classical conditioning and operant conditioning are.

    But everybody who trains with, is thinking about training with, or has ever heard of or has an opinion on ecollar training should watch the above video. That guy is a good communicator.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  8. #118
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Howard said:
    I don't care about Pavlov vs Skinner, I don't know exactly what classical conditioning and operant conditioning are.

    But everybody who trains with, is thinking about training with, or has ever heard of or has an opinion on ecollar training should watch the above video. That guy is a good communicator.
    I totally agree!
    Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
    MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
    HR Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
    Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
    HR Kwick Draw McGraw SH (June, 2007 - May, 2014)

  9. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I don't care about Pavlov vs Skinner, I don't know exactly what classical conditioning and operant conditioning are.

    But everybody who trains with, is thinking about training with, or has ever heard of or has an opinion on ecollar training should watch the above video. That guy is a good communicator.
    If you liked that one, I highly recommend watching Ellis's entire set of streaming videos on collar conditioning, which are available through Leerburg. I watched them all (several times!) last year, and found them incredibly helpful. IMO, they're far and away the best source of info available if you want to better understand collar conditioning and the relevant learning theory, and want to condition the collar and use it in a way that seeks to minimize fallout. Ellis's system of collar conditioning is really well thought out and meticulous in its approach in terms of trying to minimize the likelihood of superstitious behaviors.

    I've watched a lot of training DVDs and videos over the years, and thought his collar conditioning videos were some of the very best. Pretty much like everything Ellis does...it's all awesome. I really think they're a "must watch" for anyone who uses an e-collar in training, or plans to do so. You'll even learn some helpful stuff that has nothing to do with collar conditioning! He's definitely an excellent communicator, knows his learning theory, and really knows dogs. His other training DVDs are great as well.

    Here's the link to the videos, with a description of the contents of each video:
    http://leerburg.com/flix/landing_new.php?id=692

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    But, the thing that you need to realize, is that an indirect pressure correction RELIES on superstitious behavior!

    We are using it, to punish an undesirable behavior.

    The only difference between a behavior change following an indirect pressure correction, and superstitious behavior is that one just happened to be what we wanted to change, and the other we didn't mean to!
    I guess I missed the day in school they taught " indirect pressure correction" ...I have never heard that term used in the use of pressure before this thread... Indirect pressure has been defined as ....Direct pressure on a known command is used to achieve the proper response to the next command given ...is the way I have been taught it.....It acts as an attention getter ..a mind clearer ....It refocuses the dogs attention back on the handler...the dog gets religion again...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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