The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 13 of 22 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 211

Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #121
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I guess I missed the day in school they taught " indirect pressure correction" ...I have never heard that term used in the use of pressure before this thread... Indirect pressure has been defined as ....Direct pressure on a known command is used to achieve the proper response to the next command given ...is the way I have been taught it.....It acts as an attention getter ..a mind clearer ....It refocuses the dogs attention back on the handler...the dog gets religion again...Steve S
    It is given as a correction, following the dog's demonstration of a behavior that we desire to decrease.

    I don't know anybody that applies indirect pressure, when they think the dog might not respond correctly to the next cast they are going to give.
    The dog had to screw up first.

    It serves as a correction, that punishes the behavior immediately preceding it.

  2. #122
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Souf Joisy
    Posts
    2,751

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I don't care about Pavlov vs Skinner, I don't know exactly what classical conditioning and operant conditioning are.

    But everybody who trains with, is thinking about training with, or has ever heard of or has an opinion on ecollar training should watch the above video. That guy is a good communicator.
    Ellis has a pile of free vids at leerburg.com that are definitely worth the time. I have even paid for the full version of a few.
    Darrin Greene

  3. #123
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Allegan, MI
    Posts
    711

    Default

    Here is another Ellis video on Classical Conditioning

    http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/...n_Dog_Training
    Jon Couch
    Duck Creek Kennels
    Allegan, MI

    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

  4. #124
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cape Girardeau Mo.
    Posts
    1,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    It is given as a correction, following the dog's demonstration of a behavior that we desire to decrease.

    I don't know anybody that applies indirect pressure, when they think the dog might not respond correctly to the next cast they are going to give.
    The dog had to screw up first.

    It serves as a correction, that punishes the behavior immediately preceding it.
    You got that part right ....I totally disagree with the rest of the statement...IE:dog is off line ( on a blind ) whistle sit , right angle back cast given...dog goes left...another sit whistle, try again , same results...sit whistle with pressure ,right angle back cast again and dog gives it to you...If I wanted to communicate to the dog he went the wrong direction I would have yelled NO( the moment the dog started to move) to indicate that ...then give a whistle sit and try again...If same results a sit with pressure...Pavlov - Skinner? ...That is how Steve does it ...His way ....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #125
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    ...IE:dog is off line ( on a blind ) whistle sit , right angle back cast given...dog goes left...another sit whistle, try again , same results...sit whistle with pressure ,right angle back cast again and dog gives it to you...
    How do you NOT see that as punishing the behavior of taking the wrong cast?

  6. #126
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Pa.
    Posts
    5,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Originally Posted by copterdoc
    It is given as a correction, following the dog's demonstration of a behavior that we desire to decrease.

    I don't know anybody that applies indirect pressure, when they think the dog might not respond correctly to the next cast they are going to give.
    The dog had to screw up first.

    It serves as a correction, that punishes the behavior immediately preceding it.
    You got that part right ....I totally disagree with the rest of the statement...IE:dog is off line ( on a blind ) whistle sit , right angle back cast given...dog goes left...another sit whistle, try again , same results...sit whistle with pressure ,right angle back cast again and dog gives it to you...If I wanted to communicate to the dog he went the wrong direction I would have yelled NO( the moment the dog started to move) to indicate that ...then give a whistle sit and try again...If same results a sit with pressure...Pavlov - Skinner? ...That is how Steve does it ...His way ....Steve S

    Steve's "NO" with a correction is within the range of my understanding. But coperdoc, yours on the other hand is not .
    Will you tell us more about how this Indirect pressure/superstitious behavior thing
    works , after all the last thing that the dog did before being corrected was correctly sit to the whistle.

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 01-26-2013 at 07:44 AM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  7. #127
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,642

    Default

    Man this is some damn fine Internet dog training!


    /paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  8. #128
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cape Girardeau Mo.
    Posts
    1,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    How do you NOT see that as punishing the behavior of taking the wrong cast?
    As John said , the last thing the dog did is respond to a sit whistle...and then the pressure was applied...The dog should make the connection with the whistle... Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  9. #129
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cape Girardeau Mo.
    Posts
    1,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Steve's "NO" with a correction is within the range of my understanding. But coperdoc, yours on the other hand is not .
    Will you tell us more about how this Indirect pressure/superstitious behavior thing
    works , after all the last thing that the dog did before being corrected was correctly sit to the whistle.

    john
    John , I don't view this as correcting for the bad cast ..I view it as using pressure to reinforce my sit command... The NO would have been tied with the bad action of moving in the wrong direction...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #130
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Pa.
    Posts
    5,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    John , I don't view this as correcting for the bad cast ..I view it as using pressure to reinforce my sit command... The NO would have been tied with the bad action of moving in the wrong direction...Steve S
    Yes,I under stand that part.

    Where it gets a little unclear to me is how the dog interprets a nick after a sit compliance( Indirect pressure) to being a correction for the cast refusal. Perhaps an explanation of how IP works would help to clear this up.

    I am really interested in the IP/superstitious behavior school of thought.

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •