Skinner vs Pavlov

[copterdoc]

I guess I missed the day in school they taught " indirect pressure correction" ...I have never heard that term used in the use of pressure before this thread... Indirect pressure has been defined as ....​ Direct pressure on a known command is used to achieve the proper response to the next command given ...is the way I have been taught it.....It acts as an attention getter ..a mind clearer ....It refocuses the dogs attention back on the handler...the dog gets religion again...Steve S

It is given as a correction, following the dog's demonstration of a behavior that we desire to decrease.

I don't know anybody that applies indirect pressure, when they think the dog might not respond correctly to the next cast they are going to give.
The dog had to screw up first.

It serves as a correction, that punishes the behavior immediately preceding it.

[DarrinGreene]

I don't care about Pavlov vs Skinner, I don't know exactly what classical conditioning and operant conditioning are.

But everybody who trains with, is thinking about training with, or has ever heard of or has an opinion on ecollar training should watch the above video. That guy is a good communicator.

Ellis has a pile of free vids at leerburg.com that are definitely worth the time. I have even paid for the full version of a few.

[Jon Couch]

Here is another Ellis video on Classical Conditioning

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/...n_Dog_Training

[steve schreiner]

It is given as a correction, following the dog's demonstration of a behavior that we desire to decrease.

I don't know anybody that applies indirect pressure, when they think the dog might not respond correctly to the next cast they are going to give.
The dog had to screw up first.

It serves as a correction, that punishes the behavior immediately preceding it.

You got that part right ....I totally disagree with the rest of the statement...IE:dog is off line ( on a blind ) whistle sit , right angle back cast given...dog goes left...another sit whistle, try again , same results...sit whistle with pressure ,right angle back cast again and dog gives it to you...If I wanted to communicate to the dog he went the wrong direction I would have yelled NO( the moment the dog started to move) to indicate that ...then give a whistle sit and try again...If same results a sit with pressure...Pavlov - Skinner? ...That is how Steve does it ...His way ....Steve S

[copterdoc]

...IE:dog is off line ( on a blind ) whistle sit , right angle back cast given...dog goes left...another sit whistle, try again , same results...sit whistle with pressure ,right angle back cast again and dog gives it to you...

How do you NOT see that as punishing the behavior of taking the wrong cast?

[john fallon]

Originally Posted by copterdoc
It is given as a correction, following the dog's demonstration of a behavior that we desire to decrease.

I don't know anybody that applies indirect pressure, when they think the dog might not respond correctly to the next cast they are going to give.
The dog had to screw up first.

It serves as a correction, that punishes the behavior immediately preceding it.

You got that part right ....I totally disagree with the rest of the statement...IE:dog is off line ( on a blind ) whistle sit , right angle back cast given...dog goes left...another sit whistle, try again , same results...sit whistle with pressure ,right angle back cast again and dog gives it to you...If I wanted to communicate to the dog he went the wrong direction I would have yelled NO( the moment the dog started to move) to indicate that ...then give a whistle sit and try again...If same results a sit with pressure...Pavlov - Skinner? ...That is how Steve does it ...His way ....Steve S

Steve's "NO" with a correction is within the range of my understanding. But coperdoc, yours on the other hand is not .
Will you tell us more about how this Indirect pressure/superstitious behavior thing
works , after all the last thing that the dog did before being corrected was correctly sit to the whistle.

john

[Gun_Dog2002]

Man this is some damn fine Internet dog training!


/paul

[steve schreiner]

How do you NOT see that as punishing the behavior of taking the wrong cast?

As John said , the last thing the dog did is respond to a sit whistle...and then the pressure was applied...The dog should make the connection with the whistle... Steve S

[steve schreiner]

Steve's "NO" with a correction is within the range of my understanding. But coperdoc, yours on the other hand is not .
Will you tell us more about how this Indirect pressure/superstitious behavior thing
works , after all the last thing that the dog did before being corrected was correctly sit to the whistle.

john

John , I don't view this as correcting for the bad cast ..I view it as using pressure to reinforce my sit command... The NO would have been tied with the bad action of moving in the wrong direction...Steve S

[john fallon]

John , I don't view this as correcting for the bad cast ..I view it as using pressure to reinforce my sit command... The NO would have been tied with the bad action of moving in the wrong direction...Steve S

Yes,I under stand that part.

Where it gets a little unclear to me is how the dog interprets a nick after a sit compliance( Indirect pressure) to being a correction for the cast refusal. Perhaps an explanation of how IP works would help to clear this up.

I am really interested in the IP/superstitious behavior school of thought.

john