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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #131
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    If you consider the dog's work as a series of smaller behaviors where one behavior leads to another, you have a behavior chain. Completing one behavior leads to the next behavior and so on until the task is completed. When the dog does something wrong it has departed from the correct behavior chain and has started a different set of behaviors. In theory, any correction for a preceding behavior will be indirect pressure for a behavior following it in the chain.

    I am surprised that it works but it does.

    Luckily a trainer doesn't have to understand the theory but just has to know correct application.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    If you consider the dog's work as a series of smaller behaviors where one behavior leads to another, you have a behavior chain. Completing one behavior leads to the next behavior and so on until the task is completed. When the dog does something wrong it has departed from the correct behavior chain and has started a different set of behaviors. In theory, any correction for a preceding behavior will be indirect pressure for a behavior following it in the chain.
    I am surprised that it works but it does.

    Luckily a trainer doesn't have to understand the theory but just has to know correct application.
    This is the way I understand indirect pressure too..the direct pressure effects the next command indirectly ....Not the preceding action being punished..as in the example give before...Steve S

    John , we have all been wanting to know the same thing since the begining of this threead....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    This is the way I understand indirect pressure too..the direct pressure effects the next command indirectly ....Not the preceding action being punished..as in the example give before...Steve S

    John , we have all been wanting to know the same thing since the begining of this threead....Steve S

    Could someone elaborate on this phenomenon ?

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  4. #134
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    The correction tells the dog "You have started on the wrong behavior chain. Let me cast again and so that you can do the right behavior chain." I think that understanding behavior chains is important to understanding why this works. Maybe a good model would be to think of the behavior chain like a chain reaction. You are telling the dog that he is doing the wrong chain reaction.

    These are not my own thoughts. I credit Lorie Jolly and Marilyn Fender.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    The correction tells the dog "You have started on the wrong behavior chain. Let me cast again and so that you can do the right behavior chain." I think that understanding behavior chains is important to understanding why this works. Maybe a good model would be to think of the behavior chain like a chain reaction. You are telling the dog that he is doing the wrong chain reaction.

    These are not my own thoughts. I credit Lorie Jolly and Marilyn Fender.
    For a cast refusal, why wouldn't Steve's "NO", sit whistle , cast... or a "cold burn", sit whistle, cast work at least as well as IP.

    Better for me in fact, since I can understand why I got the compliance.

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  6. #136
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    As John said , the last thing the dog did is respond to a sit whistle...and then the pressure was applied...The dog should make the connection with the whistle... Steve S
    How could reinforcing the SIT command, possibly punish the act of sitting?

  7. #137
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    For a cast refusal, why wouldn't Steve's "NO", sit whistle , cast... or a "cold burn", sit whistle, cast work at least as well as IP.

    Better for me in fact, since I can understand why I got the compliance.

    john
    Unless the aversive stim means something specific to the dog, it will "look for" something to associate it with.

    That could be one of a thousand different things, that was happening at the time.

    However, since we have conditioned the stim to MEAN sit, it doesn't leave the dog thinking "what the hell was that?"
    It doesn't "look" for a reason.


    Where I/P comes in, is that it is impossible to reinforce with an aversive, without also punishing SOMETHING.

  8. #138
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Man this is some damn fine Internet dog training!


    /paul
    For me, it's either this or shovel snow.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Unless the aversive stim means something specific to the dog, it will "look for" something to associate it with.

    That could be one of a thousand different things, that was happening at the time.

    However, since we have conditioned the stim to MEAN sit, it doesn't leave the dog thinking "what the hell was that?"
    It doesn't "look" for a reason.


    Where I/P comes in, is that it is impossible to reinforce with an aversive, without also punishing SOMETHING.
    we have conditioned the stim to MEAN sit
    Walk me through that, will you?

    You are not applying the aversive for not sitting, you are applying it after a complaint sit, and somehow this is extrapolated by the dog to mean that it took the wrong cast.

    On the other hand you do not feel that a dog conditioned to the meaning of "NO" from it's earliest puppy/human contact, along with a successful training regimen - basics through advanced, can figure out that a CR followed by a "NO", or a Nick, or a No Nick, then a sit whistle, is the reason for the aversive it did get...... and that subsequent casts will probally elicite the requested response ?

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  10. #140
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    ....you are applying it after a complaint sit,
    That's a cold burn. It is not direct pressure to reinforce sit, if you command sit, and then burn the dog after it is already sitting.

    It doesn't matter THAT the dog was sitting.
    There was no reinforcement associated with the aversive stimulus.

    If there isn't a reinforcement component to the pressure, it is not direct, or indirect pressure. It's just "stupid pressure".

    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    ....On the other hand you do not feel that a dog conditioned to the meaning of "NO" from it's earliest puppy/human contact, along with a successful training regimen - basics through advanced, can figure out that a CR followed by a "NO", or a Nick, or a No Nick, then a sit whistle, is the reason for the aversive it did get...... and that subsequent casts will probally elicite the requested response ?
    NO, is either a conditioned non-reinforcer, or a conditioned secondary punisher.

    It doesn't mean anything to the dog other than "that wasn't what I wanted" or "this means the same thing as pain".


    There are LOTS of ways to punish the behavior of taking the wrong cast, other than using indirect pressure as a correction. I'm not saying that using a cold burn, or NO doesn't work. But, it's not the same thing as indirect pressure.

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