Skinner vs Pavlov

[steve schreiner]

How could reinforcing the SIT command, possibly punish the act of sitting?

It does not punish the act of sitting...it reinforces the act...

Why is every one so hung up on punishing the dog ..?? The stimulation or pressure is not to punish any one ...it is to reinforce the command to sit...When a trainer comes to the conclusion of reinforcing commands with pressure( proper behavior ) gets you a lot more than punishing mistakes you will see an improvement in behavior...Punishment never teaches the correct behavior..It may retard bad behavior but in never creates...unless by accident...That is what I'm interested in creating, proper behavior....Steve S

[steve schreiner]

Walk me through that, will you?

You are not applying the aversive for not sitting, you are applying it after a complaint sit, and somehow this is extrapolated by the dog to mean that it took the wrong cast.

On the other hand you do not feel that a dog conditioned to the meaning of "NO" from it's earliest puppy/human contact, along with a successful training regimen - basics through advanced, can figure out that a CR followed by a "NO", or a Nick, or a No Nick, then a sit whistle, is the reason for the aversive it did get...... and that subsequent casts will probally elicite the requested response ?

john

I would consider this punishment for the dog moving in the wrong direction and would assume with proper training in the past the dog would assume the same thing....You have in essence told the dog "wrong move, try again"...Steve S

[Gun_Dog2002]

Why don't we just ask a dog?

/Paul

[copterdoc]

It does not punish the act of sitting...it reinforces the act...

Why is every one so hung up on punishing the dog ..?? The stimulation or pressure is not to punish any one ...it is to reinforce the command to sit...When a trainer comes to the conclusion of reinforcing commands with pressure( proper behavior ) gets you a lot more than punishing mistakes you will see an improvement in behavior...Punishment never teaches the correct behavior..It may retard bad behavior but in never creates...unless by accident...That is what I'm interested in creating, proper behavior....Steve S

You are hung up on your own definitions.

Think about the standardized definitions of reinforcement and punishment in Operant Conditioning.

Reinforce = increase behavior.
Punish = decrease behavior.



With those definitions in mind, re-read everything that I wrote, that you think is about punishing DOGS, and pay attention to the word BEHAVIOR.

[john fallon]

[B]That's a cold burn. It is not direct pressure to reinforce sit, if you command sit, and then burn the dog after it is already sitting.

It doesn't matter THAT the dog was sitting.
There was no reinforcement associated with the aversive stimulus.

If there isn't a reinforcement component to the pressure, it is not direct, or indirect pressure. It's just "stupid pressure".

When using the sit, nick, sit, cast Indirect pressure for a CR, at what point and how does it(the nick) acquire a reinforcement component ?

john

[copterdoc]

It does not punish the act of sitting...it reinforces the act...

Since this IS true, the following in bold doesn't make any sense.

As John said , the last thing the dog did is respond to a sit whistle...and then the pressure was applied..The dog should make the connection with the whistle.... Steve S

The only association that the dog has between the whistle, and the aversive stim, is as reinforcement of the behavior of sitting.
It CAN'T punish the behavior that it is also reinforcing.

[steve schreiner]

Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
....you are applying it after a complaint sit,

That's a cold burn. It is not direct pressure to reinforce sit, if you command sit, and then burn the dog after it is already sitting.

It doesn't matter THAT the dog was sitting.
There was no reinforcement associated with the aversive stimulus.

If there isn't a reinforcement component to the pressure, it is not direct, or indirect pressure. It's just "stupid pressure".

NO, is either a conditioned non-reinforcer, or a conditioned secondary punisher.

It doesn't mean anything to the dog other than "that wasn't what I wanted" or "this means the same thing as pain".


There are LOTS of ways to punish the behavior of taking the wrong cast, other than using indirect pressure as a correction. I'm not saying that using a cold burn, or NO doesn't work. But, it's not the same thing as indirect pressure.

This is where you and I depart company ,....In all my years of training with a collar and all the seminars and videos I have watch and attended it has always been conveyed that a verbal command and then stimulation or pressure is applied results in reinforcing the previous command given ... Steve S

[copterdoc]

When using the sit, nick, sit, cast Indirect pressure for a CR, at what point and how does it(the nick) acquire a reinforcement component ?

john

It was established via Classical Conditioning during the process of collar conditioning.

Prior to collar conditioning, it is impossible to reinforce with the e-collar.
Because it is aversive.

Unconditioned aversive stimulus can ONLY punish. It cannot reinforce.

[Chris Atkinson]

I've spent a good bit of time trying to read each and every post in this thread right up to #144 which currently precedes my reply.

Frankly, this stuff really muddies the water for me.

Copterdoc. If all of this talk and theory and syntax helps you and your training, that's great. What matters is what works for you and your dogs.

I personally un-benefit from all of this stuff.

Here's my analogy. I could study germination, GMO seed development, photosynthesis and meteorology to plant a killer crop of tomatoes. Or I could watch for the right temperature and the calendar, buy some good seeds, plant them and water the garden if it doesn't get enough rain. In the end, I'll have some nice tomoatoes if I do it right.

All this theory and definitiion and discussion may benefit some of you. If it does, that's awesome. For me and my dogs at this point in time, it is overload and overcomplication.

Chris

[steve schreiner]

Since this IS true, the following in bold doesn't make any sense.




The only association that the dog has between the whistle, and the aversive stim, is as reinforcement of the behavior of sitting.
It CAN'T punish the behavior that it is also reinforcing.

My point exactly ...It doesn't punish ...it reinforces ...I don't agree that it has to punish something at the same time ..and ...you have not given me adequate examples that I can understand it happening ....Steve S