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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #151
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    My point exactly ...It doesn't punish ...it reinforces ...I don't agree that it has to punish something at the same time ..and ...you have not given me adequate examples that I can understand it happening ....Steve S
    There are always two out of the four quadrants in play, when a stimulus is applied.

    One of them is reinforcing, and the other is punishing.
    Every time, and at the same time.


    Now, when it comes to training with the e-collar, you are correct that we need to always be using it to reinforce.

    Read this post by Darrin again.

    Originally Posted by copterdocWhy does a dog flare the place that it was forced on back, or stopped with a whistle/nick?

    Because it associates the aversive, with the location.

    Aversive stimulus, always punishes something.

    By conditioning the dog to go, stop, and come in response to that aversive, we assure that applying it as reinforcement, doesn't punish going, stopping, or coming.
    But, it still punishes SOMETHING, when we apply an aversive to reinforce a behavior that we have conditioned to that aversive stimulus.


    That's why it works as an indirect pressure correction for what the dog was doing wrong at the time that it was applied. And it's also why the dog can "blame" it on something that we didn't want the dog to blame it on.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Agree with this, even when we are doing positive re-enforcement training there is at least a moment, if not several moments where the dog is doing the wrong behavior. During that time we are applying -p by withholding the reward, only to then apply +r when we get the correct behavior.

    Whistle sits re-enforced with pressure always has a moment where we +p running and -r sitting.

    You always have to quadrants at play. Which is why you have to be so careful with timing.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    It was established via Classical Conditioning during the process of collar conditioning.

    Prior to collar conditioning, it is impossible to reinforce with the e-collar.
    Because it is aversive.

    Unconditioned aversive stimulus can ONLY punish. It cannot reinforce.
    I agree ..that is why we go through the process of CC with proper association to each command we will be using ...This is the reason when the collars first came into use they just replaced ,whips,chains,prods and guns which were all used to punish bad behavior and because of the effectiveness of the communication it destroyed dogs..punishment never taught correct behavior ...reinforcement of proper behavior has a far greater effect on the dogs mental psyche ...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    It was established via Classical Conditioning during the process of collar conditioning.

    Prior to collar conditioning, it is impossible to reinforce with the e-collar.
    Because it is aversive.

    Unconditioned aversive stimulus can ONLY punish. It cannot reinforce.
    If the nick is as you say, classicaly paired with SITduring CC, how does it perform a function when used elsewhere, such as in back nick back, or to come( here). or kennel (to go).........

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 01-26-2013 at 02:24 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  4. #154
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    A Jist train Dugs !
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  5. #155
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    "Whistle sits re-enforced with pressure always has a moment where we +p running and -r sitting. "


    As in the case of a dog already in a sit position or in the process of sitting and pressure is applied ( as talked about in the use of indirect pressure to get the next command ) where is the +p ? If you only stimulate ( to reinforce ) while the dog is doing a command correctly where is the +p ? Heel ,dog in motion pressure ...back dog in motion ...Improper use of the collar scares me a lot...With out proper training in its use it can and will cause more problems than can be fixed ....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  6. #156
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post

    A Jist train Dugs !
    Dude, I'm on the same soil and I don't get it. So don't feel bad!

  7. #157
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    "Whistle sits re-enforced with pressure always has a moment where we +p running and -r sitting. "


    As in the case of a dog already in a sit position or in the process of sitting and pressure is applied ( as talked about in the use of indirect pressure to get the next command ) where is the +p ? If you only stimulate ( to reinforce ) while the dog is doing a command correctly where is the +p ? Heel ,dog in motion pressure ...back dog in motion ...Improper use of the collar scares me a lot...With out proper training in its use it can and will cause more problems than can be fixed ....Steve S
    Steve I don't ever nick or burn a dog whose ass is already on the ground. That serves no purpose I know of.
    Nick/burn on sit is either avoid a nick or escape a burn. The dog is out of position then the pressure is applied, even in the case of indirect pressure. The way it's timed the last behavior the dog did just before the pressure is moving, so that is punished and the next behavior (sitting) in re-enforced.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-26-2013 at 02:21 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #158
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    In Biology class I liked to dissect the frog

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    I've spent a good bit of time trying to read each and every post in this thread right up to #144 which currently precedes my reply.

    Frankly, this stuff really muddies the water for me.

    Copterdoc. If all of this talk and theory and syntax helps you and your training, that's great. What matters is what works for you and your dogs.

    I personally un-benefit from all of this stuff.

    Here's my analogy. I could study germination, GMO seed development, photosynthesis and meteorology to plant a killer crop of tomatoes. Or I could watch for the right temperature and the calendar, buy some good seeds, plant them and water the garden if it doesn't get enough rain. In the end, I'll have some nice tomoatoes if I do it right.

    All this theory and definitiion and discussion may benefit some of you. If it does, that's awesome. For me and my dogs at this point in time, it is overload and overcomplication.

    Chris
    Chris some of us want to know why it works ..INQUIRING MINDS...I agree it is hard to get a complete understanding of all the stuff ( gdg) but the more one understands the why they can appreciate the out come.. ..I'm not saying I have the complete understanding but struggling to get there...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #160
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    If the nick is as you say, classicaly paired with SITduring CC, how does perform a function when used elsewhere, such as in back nick back, or to come( here). or kennel (to go).........

    john
    Those are all conditioned with the collar too.

    Since we are using it to reinforce a known command, it doesn't punish the behavior that we want. It reinforces it.


    However, since there IS a punishing component to every aversive stimuli that a dog perceives, it HAS TO punish something else at the same time.
    Every time that the button is pushed, there is the potential that a behavior that it punishes, is a desirable behavior that we want to keep.

    We have to be cognizant of that, every time we apply aversive stim.



    It's not like we can press the button all "willy-nilly" and not end up suppressing all kinds of desirable behaviors.
    By making SURE that we are reinforcing something desirable, we avoid punishing a whole bunch of behaviors that we want to keep.

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