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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #21
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    It's beyond me. I don't have a clue.

    Put me in the TriTronics corner with my copy of the Total Retreiver Training DVD.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  2. #22
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    I think this is pretty "big". Even though I doubt most of the really good Retriever Trainers bother to think about it.
    It determines the sequence of training, the dog's training attitude, and ultimately, how far the dog can be advanced in training, before it hits a "wall".

    Think about things like when a dog freezes on the last bird of a series.
    I'm not talking about sticking.
    I'm talking zoned out, dilated pupils, in a whole nuther world kind of freezing.

    I don't think that the dog has the conscious ability to control that behavior.
    It wasn't Operantly Conditioned.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 01-23-2013 at 06:26 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    I also believe that some behaviors NEED to be Classically Conditioned, before the dog can advance to the "next level" of training.

  4. #24
    Member RobinZClark's Avatar
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    I agree with you copterdoc. Have you watched Michael Ellis's video entitled "finishing work"? He discusses this.

  5. #25
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinZClark View Post
    I agree with you copterdoc. Have you watched Michael Ellis's video entitled "finishing work"? He discusses this.
    No, I haven't seen that.

  6. #26
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    "The most important thing is to keep the most important thing the most important thing." Donald Coduto, Foundation Designs

  7. #27
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Every behavior we train into a dog (intentionally or unintentionally) is a classically conditioned response, including freezing on the last bird in a series.

    Classic conditioning shows us the animal's ability to anticipate the next event (or events) in a chain. Operant conditioning shows us the various ways we can make classic conditioning occur. Both models depend on the animal anticipating the next event in a chain, and thus no matter how we get there, all man made behavior in a dog is classically conditioned.

    Operant conditioning supports classical conditioning. They are not at all mutually exclusive, nor can they really be compared to one another.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-23-2013 at 07:50 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #28
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Operantly, or Classically?

    What kind of conditioning?

    What is the stimulus that elicits the response?
    Both. In the real world, not laboratory conditions, things aren't always "black and white".

    The stimulus in my example would be seeing something coming towards my face.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

  9. #29
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Every behavior we train into a dog (intentionally or unintentionally) is a classically conditioned response, including freezing on the last bird in a series.

    Classic conditioning shows us the animal's ability to anticipate the next event (or events) in a chain. Operant conditioning shows us the various ways we can make classic conditioning occur. Both models depend on the animal anticipating the next event in a chain, and thus no matter how we get there, all man made behavior in a dog is classically conditioned.

    Operant conditioning supports classical conditioning. They are not at all mutually exclusive, nor can they really be compared to one another.
    So, a behavior is not trained, until it is classically conditioned?

  10. #30
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    So, a behavior is not trained, until it is classically conditioned?
    The goal is always to have the dog respond immediately, correctly, 100% of the time, regardless of circumstance or distraction. That's a classically conditioned response.
    Darrin Greene

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