Skinner vs Pavlov

[Howard N]

It's beyond me. I don't have a clue.

Put me in the TriTronics corner with my copy of the Total Retreiver Training DVD.

[copterdoc]

I think this is pretty "big". Even though I doubt most of the really good Retriever Trainers bother to think about it.
It determines the sequence of training, the dog's training attitude, and ultimately, how far the dog can be advanced in training, before it hits a "wall".

Think about things like when a dog freezes on the last bird of a series.
I'm not talking about sticking.
I'm talking zoned out, dilated pupils, in a whole nuther world kind of freezing.

I don't think that the dog has the conscious ability to control that behavior.
It wasn't Operantly Conditioned.

[copterdoc]

I also believe that some behaviors NEED to be Classically Conditioned, before the dog can advance to the "next level" of training.

[RobinZClark]

I agree with you copterdoc. Have you watched Michael Ellis's video entitled "finishing work"? He discusses this.

[copterdoc]

I agree with you copterdoc. Have you watched Michael Ellis's video entitled "finishing work"? He discusses this.

No, I haven't seen that.

[Paul "Happy" Gilmore]

"The most important thing is to keep the most important thing the most important thing." Donald Coduto, Foundation Designs

[DarrinGreene]

Every behavior we train into a dog (intentionally or unintentionally) is a classically conditioned response, including freezing on the last bird in a series.

Classic conditioning shows us the animal's ability to anticipate the next event (or events) in a chain. Operant conditioning shows us the various ways we can make classic conditioning occur. Both models depend on the animal anticipating the next event in a chain, and thus no matter how we get there, all man made behavior in a dog is classically conditioned.

Operant conditioning supports classical conditioning. They are not at all mutually exclusive, nor can they really be compared to one another.

[gdgnyc]

Operantly, or Classically?

What kind of conditioning?

What is the stimulus that elicits the response?

Both. In the real world, not laboratory conditions, things aren't always "black and white".

The stimulus in my example would be seeing something coming towards my face.

[copterdoc]

Every behavior we train into a dog (intentionally or unintentionally) is a classically conditioned response, including freezing on the last bird in a series.

Classic conditioning shows us the animal's ability to anticipate the next event (or events) in a chain. Operant conditioning shows us the various ways we can make classic conditioning occur. Both models depend on the animal anticipating the next event in a chain, and thus no matter how we get there, all man made behavior in a dog is classically conditioned.

Operant conditioning supports classical conditioning. They are not at all mutually exclusive, nor can they really be compared to one another.

So, a behavior is not trained, until it is classically conditioned?

[DarrinGreene]

So, a behavior is not trained, until it is classically conditioned?

The goal is always to have the dog respond immediately, correctly, 100% of the time, regardless of circumstance or distraction. That's a classically conditioned response.