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Thread: Skinner vs Pavlov

  1. #31
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    The goal is always to have the dog respond immediately, correctly, 100% of the time, regardless of circumstance or distraction. That's a classically conditioned response.
    Does that response have to be to a neutral stimulus?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Maybe this will make it a little easier to understand

    Classical Conditioning
    What Goes with What?

    Classical conditioning, Pavlovian conditioning, associative learning – these are all terms for what happens when an animal learns associations among things. Learning associations means learning that things go together: when one thing happens (you burn your dinner), another thing will follow shortly (the smoke detector goes off). You say “Let’s go for a walk”, your dog jumps up all excited because he has learned that this particular phrase precedes going out for a walk. Your cat runs to its food dish when it hears the can opener because often this signals feeding time. In each case, there is a predictable relationship among the events and the animal learns to respond to the first event in anticipation of the second event. That’s what classical conditioning is all about: anticipation.

    Reid, Pamela J. (2011-07-25). Excel-Erated Learning: Explaining in Plain English How Dogs Learn and How Best to Teach Them (Kindle Locations 391-399). James & Kenneth Publishers. Kindle Edition.


    Operant Conditioning
    Does What I Do Affect What Happens to Me?

    Operant conditioning, instrumental learning1, Skinnerian conditioning – these are all terms for what happens when an animal learns that its behavior has consequences. Learning that a particular behavior has a consequence might be as simple as learning that rolling over on your side in bed feels good or as complex as learning that solving difficult mathematical problems leads to an opportunity to receive a scholarship. There are countless things we do everyday that lead to consequences that wouldn’t happen if we hadn’t done something. If you don’t work, you don’t get paid. If you don’t cook, you don’t eat. If I ask my dog to sit and he doesn’t, he doesn’t get a treat. If he were a wild animal and he didn’t bother to go out and hunt, he wouldn’t eat. In other words, things happen because we do things and animals learn these relationships the same as do people.

    Reid, Pamela J. (2011-07-25). Excel-Erated Learning: Explaining in Plain English How Dogs Learn and How Best to Teach Them (Kindle Locations 452-461). James & Kenneth Publishers. Kindle Edition.
    Jon Couch
    Duck Creek Kennels
    Allegan, MI

    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

  3. #33
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Does that response have to be to a neutral stimulus?
    I'm not going to get drug into a debate over details. We condition every command and every response the dog has. Pretty much everything they do outside of eating and chasing things is created by a human and conditioned through classical conditioning, supported by Skinner's re-enforcement schedules.

    It's that simple and if newer folks keep that in mind, they will become better trainers.

    I do it with pet dog owners all day, every day. They get it because it's relatively simple and they train their own dogs very effectively when armed with the knowledge.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-24-2013 at 07:02 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  4. #34
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    I think,,,I think


    You can have classic conditioning going on while you apply operant conditioning but you don't have to have operant conditioning going on when the dog is learning by classic only

    Because dogs make associations between events all the time when we are training them

    but they also make associations when they are not being trained
    All theives are malifactors but not all malifactors are thieves ,,,or something like that
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  5. #35
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I'm not going to get drug into a debate over details.
    I think it's more significant than a minor detail.

    What if the stimulus that triggers a conditioned response, is in itself aversive rather than neutral?

  6. #36
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    [QUOTEWhat if the stimulus that triggers a conditioned response, is in itself aversive rather than neutral][/QUOTE]

    Perfect example
    There is always a dog somewhere that doesn't want to come out of his kennel because it is anticipating bad juju associated with training.
    Doesn't matter if the training was bad or not,,,, bad training good dog or good dog bad training,,,,in their mind it was an association the dog doesn't like.

    That's a classic example of CC taking place during OC,,,dogs associated pretty much everything. Its part of being a dog.
    They even associate when their resting with both eyes closed.
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  7. #37
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I think,,,I think


    You can have classic conditioning going on while you apply operant conditioning but you don't have to have operant conditioning going on when the dog is learning by classic only

    Because dogs make associations between events all the time when we are training them

    but they also make associations when they are not being trained
    All theives are malifactors but not all malifactors are thieves ,,,or something like that
    Pete
    I understand what you are saying. Lots of training methods work, that don't make sense when thought of in OC terms, but make perfect sense when thought of as CC.

    However, I don't think it's possible to eliminate the laws of reinforcement/punishment, and action/consequence even though you are trying to use classical conditioning at the time.

    Both theories apply, all the time.

  8. #38
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    Both theories apply, all the time.
    But I don't see any OC taking place during pavlovs experiment. A bell causes the dog to have an involuntary metabolic response..
    I think you can have CC without OC going on but cannot have OCgoing on without CC,,,,see
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  9. #39
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    But I don't see any OC taking place during pavlovs experiment. A bell causes the dog to have an involuntary metabolic response..
    I think you can have CC without OC going on but cannot have OCgoing on without CC,,,,see
    Pete
    He had to use OC, to get the dog to the point of being classically conditioned to salivate in response to the bell.

    And he also has to use OC, to maintain that conditioning.

  10. #40
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    What if the stimulus that triggers a conditioned response, is in itself aversive rather than neutral
    Perfect example
    There is always a dog somewhere that doesn't want to come out of his kennel because it is anticipating bad juju associated with training.
    Doesn't matter if the training was bad or not,,,, bad training good dog or good dog bad training,,,,in their mind it was an association the dog doesn't like.

    That's a classic example of CC taking place during OC,,,dogs associated pretty much everything. Its part of being a dog.
    They even associate when their resting with both eyes closed.
    Pete
    That example is sort of opposite of what I was thinking about.

    With CC, a stimulus is associated with a response, until the stimulus itself elicits the response.

    That stimulus can be anything that a dog detects with one of it's 5 senses. And the response, can be any behavior that the dog has been conditioned to perform on cue.

    We can associate any stimulus with any action, and condition the dog to perform that action in response to the stimulus.
    And that stimulus can be aversive.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 01-24-2013 at 09:19 AM.

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