The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: mouthing dummy

  1. #11
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Stirling Scotland
    Posts
    778

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    If you're using a 2" bumper, a 3" bumper might help.
    Agreed (in my limited knowledge) , Better still! maybe a 4 " ,or ''Hare dummy''?
    Some are 'rollers' in the mouth, using the tongue to position the 'thing'!..not actually mouthing (imho).
    These ''types'' (ime) ,using the 'Hold' ,and or 'Hold with taps or jaw crack', created ' hard mouth ,rather than solving?>..But then ...I don't see your dog?..or you?
    Just a thought.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Linden, VA
    Posts
    1,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Patos View Post
    Not that I'm a guru but Lardy has a tip on TRT2 and its step on the end of the bumper on the ground to lift it for correct hold.Just my .02.
    Did that when I moved to the ground

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mountain Duck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Chilhowie, VA
    Posts
    202

    Default

    blacklab,

    Are you using Hillmann's "Fetch" video or his method in the Training a Retriever Puppy?

    If you are using the Fetch video, I'd say you are more than ready to start teaching "Fetch" as Bill outlines in the video. I looked back through my seminar notes, and had written where Bill said "if Hold is somewhat established (but not perfect), to go ahead and get Fetch started as Hold can take some time to perfect." He also suggested reinforcing "sit" with the collar to address the mouthing. One of his dogs was a little mouthy, which he attributed to his strong prey drive, and desire to shake and kill stuff (behavior you often see in young puppies)

    Be sure you are not getting into a grind with the pup over hold and fetch (when you start). Keep it light, and keep several other things going on in the same session (OB, traffic cop, breaking marks etc)

    I FF'd my current (7 month old) pup with Bill's Fetch video. I used traditional ear pinch with my two older dogs.
    Wildlife and Outdoor Photography

    http://www.ericrutherford.net

  4. #14
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Duck View Post
    Might add that 3" CANVAS, made a difference over 2" plastic with my pup I just FF'd (via Hillmann). Also, If you have CC'd to sit (by Hillmann), (and she is doing a good job of holding), you can reinforce "sit" with the collar when she get's mouthy. Use your traffic cop hand gesture while giving a "sit", nick. Puts the attention on sit, and off the mouthing.

    Be firm and persistent, but also be patient and calm.
    And don't go back to the 2" bumper, let the 3" type of hold become a habit.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  5. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default

    MountainDuck thanks for the info. I am using Hillmans puppy video and also watched the Hillman fetch on waterdogs e-clinics version. I think this might be a shorter version as compared to the video. She understands the fetch command, but I have not reinforced with the e-collar yet. She sits real well with and without distractions using traffic cop. What exactly do you mean (getting into a grind with the pup over hold and fetch)? I'm hoping as Copterdoc hinted that the problem will probably go away on its own, and probably after the reinforcing with the collar. I will start reinforcing with the e-collar, as I just purchased Hillmans e-collar video, for a better understanding of the e-collar. I will probably also purchase the fetch video.

  6. #16
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,444

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blacklab12 View Post
    .....What exactly do you mean (getting into a grind with the pup over hold and fetch)? I'm hoping as Copterdoc hinted that the problem will probably go away on its own, and probably after the reinforcing with the collar.
    Don't nit-pick the little things, and apply pressure in two directions at once.

    There's some stuff that is a problem, and interferes with the work at hand.
    But, there's a lot of stuff that is only a problem, if you make it a problem. And you can really make something small, into a big problem if you insist on making it an issue.

    There's often a fine line between meeting a standard, and creating your own problems.
    And that's a line that you simply can't see, until you have enough experience.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mountain Duck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Chilhowie, VA
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Don't nit-pick the little things, and apply pressure in two directions at once.

    There's some stuff that is a problem, and interferes with the work at hand.
    But, there's a lot of stuff that is only a problem, if you make it a problem. And you can really make something small, into a big problem if you insist on making it an issue.

    There's often a fine line between meeting a standard, and creating your own problems.
    And that's a line that you simply can't see, until you have enough experience.
    Yes, what copterdoc said and to add, Hillmann's method is quite a departure from the norm in that, it is taught in a more passive way, and slipped in while you continue to progress on everything else you have been working on, i.e obedience, marking, steadiness, minature concept marks. You keep your dog in a positive frame of mind, and balanced. If you see she's getting down, back out and get her back up. Try to not get where you have to constantly bring her back up. You want to stay level/balanced.

    So don't go out in the yard, and say alright, we're going to do 10 minutes of fetch. Believe me it's easy to get in that routine.

    With that said, I Forced my other two on a table in my garage, moved to the ground, walking fetch, stick fetch etc. It wasn't the "chamber of horrors" (with my two) that some have often described it as, BUT it is definately different that Hillmann's approach. A lot of stuff is put to the side as you go through FF (traditional), and it is somewhat of a grind. If you want to do it like Bill, your never really miss a beat with everything else you've been doing. It's not the "ok, time to learn how to deal with some heavy pressure today" You just start gradually getting a higher standard of performance as you continue to practice many many many times, reinforcing along the way with the collar.

    Not sure what the e clinic version is, but the Fetch video is different than the puppy video. The puppy video is basically like a more traditional ear pinch, in that it uses continous collar stimulation, teaching the dog to "turn off" the pressure. Although Bill does do it with a somewhat younger pup, and in a more gentle way. The Fetch video is a completely different method (sounds like the e-clinic describes this method)
    Wildlife and Outdoor Photography

    http://www.ericrutherford.net

  8. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Meridian,MS
    Posts
    223

    Default

    I think that some early mouth issues can come from a weak standard in formal obedience. If you go back and get your formal obedience standard higher you might see the mouthing issue clean up some.

  9. #19
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Piney Point on Sardis Lake, MS
    Posts
    485

    Default

    Yes, there are a few ways to get a quiet mouth before force fetch. None of them are associated with any sort of collar pressure. Collar pressure only reinforces something already taught. You haven't taught the quiet mouth yet.

    I've had this problem with my pups and think it is due to throwing a hard bumper too soon before all of their adult teeth are in. It can quickly become a habit with some dogs especially high rollers.

    With my year old male who was rolling bumpers I went back to the old time gloved hand in mouth and taught HOLD. Then I switched to a PVC pipe to teach hold. He is much better on bumpers now. When he reverts to rolling the bumper, I grab his muzzle tightly to stop the chewing and say HOLD.

  10. #20
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Roscoe, IL
    Posts
    1,997

    Default

    Well, how about looking at this a bit differently....as opposed to either "making the puppy stop mouthing" or fixing it by changing physical presentations? Take it as a read that you might be doing something wrong. All too often the problem is demonstrated when the pup is nearing or "beside" his handler. Why do you think that happens? Here's an idea. Assume mouthing is more of a negative coping skill to relieve perceived pressure.

    If the answer to that question is not dealt with appropriately, the usual result is the issue doesn't really go away. It can be masked or internalized only to manifest itself in another negative coping skill later on. For example, you could temporarily erase the outward expression of anxiety by distracting the pup with bigger bumpers, or moving on to a "cobbled", out of sequnce "hold" patch or distract him by making a bigger issue out of sit. However, the underlying issue of why is often not dealt with.

    Mouthing is a read that screams "I am anxious and this helps me to cope." Wouldn't it be much wiser and proactive to address the real cause instead of applying a bandage (or three)?

    Regularly show the puppy that "ready, set, go" is poor form. Slow down, be calm and quiet.......all the time when training. Exaggerate the rate as if you were imitating Methuselah.

    This kind of pup needs a trainer to recognize why he is mouthing and adjust sessions to extinguish the expectation by providing alternative behaviors instead of covering it up with layers of "fix it" attempts or worse yet hoping he will "out grow" it.

    "Don't feed the beast." - Rody Best
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 01-26-2013 at 11:23 AM.
    Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
    MPR UH HRCH Kwick Taffey of Joemac's MH
    HR Kwick Daisy's Spirit Keeper SH
    Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH
    HR Kwick Draw McGraw SH (June, 2007 - May, 2014)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •